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Thread: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

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    Kiki52's Avatar Yoda
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    Default Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    In Kingdoms, the text that shows on the screens make Saladin and the Muslims the 'bad' guys while the Crusaders are the good guys.

    It says Saladin went to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and took down the cross and beat it with sticks going around Jerusalem. That seems very horrible as I want to go to Jerusalem one day and see that church where Jesus was buried. I also want to see Al-Aqsa mosque unfortunately they won't allow me there, and the Wailing Wall.

    Not to mention Saladin got screwed in the special abilities in the Crusade campaign, only giving his troops max morale but not make them come back from routing. I felt it should last a LOT longer, because they don't get the benefit of added attack power or speed, and max morale isn't as useful it only delays a persons death but not bring them back from routing.

    But didn't the Templars do bad things too? Like didn't the Templars when they got Jerusalem, they went to Al-Aqsa mosque and desecrated it too, by making it their HQ (hence the term "Templars" meaning Temple) and put a cross on a Muslim building, the building where Muhammad rose to heaven and the same building which Abraham almost killed his son Isaac?

    What do you think about Saladin? In Kingdom of Heaven, Saladin didn't play so big of a role. But I do know someone is making a movie now about Saladin that is CGI.
    Last edited by Kiki52; October 07, 2007 at 07:26 PM.

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    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Sanchi
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    Default Re: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    I think that was mostly Propaganda done by the Crusaders to get peolpe to go on the crusades All of the stuff I have read about Salidin has said nothing of the sort.
    according to exarch I am like
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    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

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    ThiudareiksGunthigg's Avatar Tasmanian Devil
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    Default Re: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiki52 View Post
    It says Saladin went to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and took down the cross and beat it with sticks going around Jerusalem.
    That happened.

    But didn't the Templars do bad things too? Like didn't the Templars when they got Jerusalem, they went to Al-Aqsa mosque and desecrated it too, by making it their HQ (hence the term "Templars" meaning Temple)
    No. When the Crusaders took Jerusalem the Templars had not even been founded. They were granted a building in the old Temple compound as their first headquarters - that's how they got their name. They also had good relations with Muslims and were happy to let them worship on the Temple Mount.[/QUOTE]

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    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Sanchi
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    Default Re: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    However Salidin didn't sloughter every Christian in the city.
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

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    Dayman's Avatar Romesick
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    Default Re: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiki52 View Post
    In Kingdoms, the text that shows on the screens make Saladin and the Muslims the 'bad' guys while the Crusaders are the good guys.

    It says Saladin went to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and took down the cross and beat it with sticks going around Jerusalem. That seems very horrible as I want to go to Jerusalem one day and see that church where Jesus was buried. I also want to see Al-Aqsa mosque unfortunately they won't allow me there, and the Wailing Wall.
    Desecrating a holy site isn't an evil act, only to those that perceive that site as holy.

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    Sher Khan's Avatar Mad Nomad Dad
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    Default Re: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    I can't say for sure if Saladin either directed the action himself or simply agreed to the idea, but I'm pretty sure he either let it happen without bothering to stop it or just didn't care.

    The crosses were seen as a form of idolatry and something that had to be cleansed to make the city 'holy' again. It's a back and forth thing, consecration and desecration.



    I can't say he was a horrible guy. From all accounts, you could beg of him and inspire from him sympathy. Though he was unrelenting in his religious intolerance of Christian fanatics (Templars I suppose) and Shi'a.

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    Jaquil's Avatar Wimmer
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    Default Re: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing View Post
    Desecrating a holy site isn't an evil act, only to those that perceive that site as holy.
    I think its safe to say that it is evil. The intent is to destroy a artefact very important to some people, even if a majority of people don't care it still is wrong.
    After all, I'm sure some people don't consider the Holocaust evil, but we know that it is

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
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    Default Re: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    Well, Saladin probably was a great general before he died, but he would never wash away his crime of betraying his master...

    Conclusion: he was a traitor.

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    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Sanchi
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    Default Re: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    That is techniclly true he did betray Nur'Al'Din.
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

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    christof139's Avatar Genjo
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    Default Re: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    Saladin was tolerant to the Shi'a and Christian Copts in Egypt and that is how he managed to control Egypt. He, like everyone else of the time, committed some massacares, but he was quite honorable, kind for those times, and respected by most everyone.

    Supposedly when he was dieing, he showed concern for his Chistian friends and aqauntances since he was afraid for their heathen souls that were surely damned to perdition or whatever since they wouldn't convert to Islam.

    Chris

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
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    Default Re: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiljan Arslan View Post
    That is techniclly true he did betray Nur'Al'Din.
    Not technically but in really too.

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    different_13's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    I know some of this may be propaganda, but I was under the impression that Salah Al-Din was one of the most respected people of the middle ages (in terms of how we think of them).


    Despite his fierce struggle against the Christian incursion, Saladin achieved a great reputation in Europe as a chivalrous knight, so much so that there existed by the fourteenth century an epic poem about his exploits, and Dante included him among the virtuous pagan souls in Limbo. Saladin appears in a sympathetic light in Sir Walter Scott's The Talisman (1825). Despite the Crusaders' slaughter when they originally conquered Jerusalem in 1099, Saladin granted amnesty and free passage to all common Catholics and even to the defeated Christian army, as long as they were able to pay the aforementioned ransom (the Greek Orthodox Christians were treated even better, because they often opposed the western Crusaders). An interesting view of Saladin and the world in which he lived is provided by Tariq Ali's novel The Book of Saladin.[8]
    Notwithstanding the differences in beliefs, the Muslim Saladin was respected by Christian lords, Richard especially. Richard once praised Saladin as a great prince, saying that he was without doubt the greatest and most powerful leader in the Islamic world.[9] Saladin in turn stated that there was not a more honorable Christian lord than Richard. After the treaty, Saladin and Richard sent each other many gifts as tokens of respect, but never met face to face.

    Yes, it's Wiki, but imo still viable information.

    Btw, what does Saladin mean? Was it a title of some sort, or a nickname? (as I know his given name was Joseph ((well, Yusuf))


    Btw, OP - was Jesus buried in a church? I'm a little lax on what happened after the resurrection (regardless of my beliefs on that matter) - but wasn't he initially placed in a sepulchre owned by Joseph of Arimathea?
    Life, go easy on me


    Then I weighed him I said, “Holy ****!” because he weighs 900,000,000,000,000,000 tons. That amazing weight made me say the “S” word.
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    Kiki52's Avatar Yoda
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    Default Re: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    I think that Jesus was believed to have been buried at one of two places, before he resurrected again.

    One, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is the place that Constantine thought he was buried because he asked locals where Jesus buried. It was built over like 4 times I think, one during Constantine's time, another during the 11th century I think, then again in the 15th century, then again in the 18th or 19th century. Each one being built progressively over enough, like a building inside buildings.

    The other place where he could have been buried was I think that place where people say was the place of the skull. That is where Westerners go and believe Jesus' tomb was, because many of them are unfamiliar with Greek Orthodox church services.

    I don't know exactly where he was buried, so I must believe it must be one of the two. If I ever go to Israel, I'll visit both if I can because I don't know which was he actually was buried in.

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    different_13's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    Ah yes, Golgotha.

    Anyway, thanks for the civil reply.
    Life, go easy on me


    Then I weighed him I said, “Holy ****!” because he weighs 900,000,000,000,000,000 tons. That amazing weight made me say the “S” word.
    for more from the wonderful world of Humber Reloaded, just google it!


    Under the patronage of imb39

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    Darsh's Avatar Maréchal de l'Empire
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    Default Re: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    A horrible man for his ennemies and a great heroe for his allies.

    Légion étrangčre : « Honneur et Fidélité »

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    Sher Khan's Avatar Mad Nomad Dad
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    Default Re: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    There are some people you can simply call monsters when looking through history.

    Saladin I would argue was a rather kind man, though no less resistant to the violent dispositions of religious wrath, anger, and revenge-seeking than any other man.

    He wasn't Hitler with a big beard, but neither was he Jesus in a turban.

    But more Jesus than Hitler still.




    Also, Salah ad-Din is an honorific title, like 'el Cid' or any of those long titles you see every time a ruler is introduced in a letter. It means 'the Peace of the Faith' or 'the Goodness of the Faith.'

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    ThiudareiksGunthigg's Avatar Tasmanian Devil
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    Default Re: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiki52 View Post
    I think that Jesus was believed to have been buried at one of two places, before he resurrected again.

    One, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is the place that Constantine thought he was buried because he asked locals where Jesus buried. It was built over like 4 times I think, one during Constantine's time, another during the 11th century I think, then again in the 15th century, then again in the 18th or 19th century. Each one being built progressively over enough, like a building inside buildings.

    The other place where he could have been buried was I think that place where people say was the place of the skull. That is where Westerners go and believe Jesus' tomb was, because many of them are unfamiliar with Greek Orthodox church services.

    I don't know exactly where he was buried, so I must believe it must be one of the two. If I ever go to Israel, I'll visit both if I can because I don't know which was he actually was buried in.
    You should leave the second one off the list. The so-called "Garden Tomb" which is presented to many pilgrims today as the "real" tomb of Jesus was originally added to the itinerary of Protestant pilgrims in the Nineteenth Century by guides who wanted to avoid the "Popish" pomp of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and see what his "real" tomb might have looked like. It was soon forgotten that it was never meant to be his actual tomb and now gets presented to tourists as an actual alternative site.

    At least the one in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is actually connected to Jesus by ancient tradition. The other one is simply connected to him by mistake.

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    Maverick's Avatar "Mad, is he?"
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    Default Re: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    Saladin was a chivalrous knight, a good example for the barbarians that think they are involved in a holy war today.

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    Jukutatsu shita
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    Default Re: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sher Khan View Post
    There are some people you can simply call monsters when looking through history.

    Saladin I would argue was a rather kind man, though no less resistant to the violent dispositions of religious wrath, anger, and revenge-seeking than any other man.

    He wasn't Hitler with a big beard, but neither was he Jesus in a turban.
    Absolutely True. Saladin was a product his time and religion, as was the Crusaders. He committed horrible acts as did the Crusaders. The massacre of Jerusalem springs to mind. AFAIK, Saladin didn't slaughter Christians.


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    christof139's Avatar Genjo
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    Default Re: Saladin: Was he really a horrible man or hero of Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thutmose View Post
    Saladin was a chivalrous knight, a good example for the barbarians that think they are involved in a holy war today.
    Yes!!! Chris

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