I would love to see the following cuirass, for more elite units or the light lancers you mentioned...
^bottom of the pic, the "char aina" cuirass.
It is comprised of 4 parts, the two big ones are on front and back while the small ones are on the sides, and being smaller the hands have plenty of room to move.
My proposal for the general bodyguard are those "mail and plate" Sindis, a cuirass that was found... In Sind of all places. It IS from a later time, but so far as I know the "mail and plate" design existed back then as well.
@Ahiga, please comment, as I may be wrong here.
So, after expressing my small reservations, here is my proposal for the bodygard of the Sindhi general's bodyguard...
Vambraces detail...
Helmet detail...
(without the "anchorage" in front)
Horse detail, if needed, it too is mail and plate,
Allow me to re-post here the following pictures, as Sind IS on the river mouth of Indos where the artist painted those pictures. Should AD need them again, here they are...
For those on Baluchi side of the border, I have those pics... They are from a Portuguese traveller of 16th century in India (Indus mouth), so Baluchistan, and who described what he saw. I hope some of the following can come in handy for Oman... I know it is a bit later than our time, but I believe there are some things in here for AD to use.
I have a lot more like these including a spearman, a swordsman, a horseman and an archer but I fear that it might be too much for one post... I do think they will be a great source of inspiration for AD.
after some thought, I decided to include them here, as I think that AD should have all the references he needs in ONE post and not search around...
Spearman
Swordsman
horseman
archer
Indian Levies...
Those who haven't, REP Alpha Delta NOW!
Last edited by Keravnos; October 10, 2007 at 10:30 AM.
Go Minerwars Go! A 6DOF game of space mining and shooting. SAKA Co-FC, Koinon Hellenon FC, Epeiros FC. RS Hellenistic Historian K.I.S.S.
We went with some later era inspirations with the Ksatriya because there was an absolute lack of anything prior to it. While the char aina cuirass is very cool, and I like how it feels almost full circle (having returned back to 'breastplates'), it may feel a little bit out of date. Excluding the Ksatriya, our armors tend to reach the 1300s-1500s as a limit, but like you mention mail and plate -was- in use in the 1300s. The question is just how it was, and if something like the Char Aina was in use back then, or if it was a post 1500s style.
What you will probably see is the Chihal'Ta Hazar Masha, or Coat of a Thousand nails. We've seen artwork of this depicted on various soldiers of various origins from the 1300s onto the 1500s. It's basically a stiff leather/linen cuirass and shoulder pads. It seems to be Mongolian in origin, as an Ottoman Ghazi wearing something like it in the 1300s is commented on having his armor originate with them, and various Mongolian pieces of art feature this armor.
These are various styles resembling the Coat of a Thousand Nails. The leftmost image is naturally not a historical representation, but it's inspiration is pretty accurate. The Coat of a Thousand Nails is the quilted 'hauberk' as I call it, which the metal discs lie upon on the rightmost images.
The problem is that the Jagirs are currently the elites of the Sindhi Army. For us to include the mail and plate will be difficult, as it would have to go on the next mesh down, and not outclass the Jagir's own armor. I have actually seen a Indian warrior depicted with only cloth on beneath his mail and plate. Something like that, or something with less mail and armor than the jagirs (Such as the mail and plate with only breast and back plate, and not those on the sides) could work. If we can figure out a specific date when these broader plates were being utilized, that might help in the case towards their inclusion.
On the topic of Sindh, if you can find some Indian styles of quilted/padded garments, that'd be great. I'm drafting the conceptual design for the remaining two meshes, and both are supposed to utilize a good deal of quilted armor as evidently it was one of the staple armors of India. I could use more examples of it if at all possible. From Rise of Persia as well as other sources it seems that quilted vests without sleeves were utilized.
Of course I cannot speak for AD, and those great photos might inspire him to approach it differently. Thank you for the photos of course. I'm sure if we don't do them wholesale, bits and pieces will be very helpful to have. Those Baluchi photos help too, as one would presume the styles are somewhat Persian inspired, and I read that Western/Northern India was rather Indo-persian.
Last edited by Ahiga; October 10, 2007 at 11:13 AM.
@ AD, thanks. Appreciated. I am familliar with that cuirass "Coat of a Thousand nails" and I do think it would be excellent.
On the topic of Sindh, if you can find some Indian styles of quilted/padded garments, that'd be great. I'm drafting the conceptual design for the remaining two meshes, and both are supposed to utilize a good deal of quilted armor as evidently it was one of the staple armors of India. I could use more examples of it if at all possible.
Indeed it was. I have seen examples of diamond quilted garments ranging from Indo-Saka to far later. However IndoSaka are 1000 years before BC. Let me see what I can find. Can that be of use?
The problem is that the Jagirs are currently the elites of the Sindhi Army. For us to include the mail and plate will be difficult, as it would have to go on the next mesh down, and not outclass the Jagir's own armor. I have actually seen a Indian warrior depicted with only cloth on beneath his mail and plate. Something like that, or something with less mail and armor than the jagirs (Such as the mail and plate with only breast and back plate, and not those on the sides) could work. If we can figure out a specific date when these broader plates were being utilized, that might help in the case towards their inclusion.
Well, I have this pic, which is one showing the same exact kind of armor...
Now, I cannot help with the date of the broader plates for the body, but I can pipoint the shoulder protectors, something like those was described in a find at Ai-Khanoum, (in the borders of Afghanistan and Tajikistan), in the following excrept from the findings of the long lost city of Alexandria Oxiane, destroyed in 145 BCE. Back then both Afghanistan and Sind were under Greek conquest. The afgan state was called Baktria, the Indian state, IndoGreek kingdom.
Originally Posted by report of findings at the armory of Ai-Khanoum
..."pair of shoulder-pieces, found positioned one on the other, each of them being composed of three parts: a completion of lanceolate (fishlike hexagon like- my comment) scales protecting the shoulder-blade, four rectangular lamellae covering transversally the shoulder top and an oblong plate provided with a buckle permitting the attachment to the corselet. "
I know it sounds like, heck, it IS a stretch, and I don't know whether you can make use of something like that, but here it is.
like the ones this guy-you linked to- is wearing on his shoulder...
Now, like I said in the quilted clothes thingie it is a stretch. I don't know if you guys can use it, but there it is.
--------
Quilted armor found in that region India and Afghanistan in prior centuries...
Dancing IndoSaka... and below them is the target... diamond quilted armor
Quilted armor and 2 leather straps in the front and back, joining in a "X" manner and an iron "buckler" of sorts in the middle, where they join.
artist rendition of the above, without the "X" in the front and back and without that iron "buckler"... in the right,
and here are some Gandahara warriors, a post Kushan state that was conquered by the Islam jihad, but was reconquered by the Indians until the 1030's when Gazni emerged. Target is the guy in the left, and the guy in the right- the one holding the spear and the face painted shield.
Last edited by Keravnos; October 10, 2007 at 12:21 PM.
Go Minerwars Go! A 6DOF game of space mining and shooting. SAKA Co-FC, Koinon Hellenon FC, Epeiros FC. RS Hellenistic Historian K.I.S.S.
Indo-saka is quite alright. There's actually an excellent Kushan warrior which we'll be utilizing for inspiration. There's a quote I recall from a book on Greco-Roman warfare that seems apt, basically that a legionary from 200 bc could fall asleep and wake up in 300 Ad and be able to fight with not too much difficulty, and contrasted this with a knight waking up in the modern era. Old armor didn't really have a reason to change except for fashion, and in India as well as other parts of the world, I get the feeling that those fashions didn't necessarily change so much over the centuries, save for changes brought on by Invaders (very little by the arabs, but a lot by the Turks).
I think we're a bit more willing to go back in time for armor styles than we are to go ahead, so if you have a number of Indo-Saka type armor that could have continued to see use, I'd love to see them.
Ahiga, do you suppose that the ruins of Mohenjo-Daro could be added to the Indus River Valley area of the Sindh? As it is the earliest known City-State, and shows sings that it was laid out by civil engineering, even though it pre-dates Sumer and Babalonia by at least a thousand years (or more by some estimates), it could be made into a Wonder, granting a building bonus.
Just a thought.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa
Archaeologists discovered two 4000-year-old cities, 400 miles apart, along the banks of the Indus River in Pakistan. These expertly constructed cities were parts of an advanced civilization comparable to ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt. We don’t know what the ancient people of the Indus River Valley called themselves. Archaeologists named the cities Mohenjo-Daro, which means “hill of the dead,” and Harappa, after a nearby city.
The people of Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa lived in sturdy brick houses that had as many as three floors. The houses had bathrooms that were connected to sewers. Their elaborate drainage system was centuries ahead of their time. Archaeologists have found the remains of fine jewelry, including stones from far away places. This shows that the people of the Indus Valley civilization valued art and traded with other cultures.
We don’t know what happened to the Indus River Valley civilization. It seems to have been abandoned about 1700BC. It is possible that a great flood weakened the civilization. The moving tectonic plates that created the Himalayas may have caused a devastating earthquake. It is also possible that the people may have been defeated by another culture. What we know about the Indus civilization is evolving. Archaeologists are continuing to find new artifacts. In time, we may learn how this amazing civilization developed, how they learned to create an advanced ancient civilization, and why they suddenly disappeared.
Mohenjo-daro (Urdu: موئن جودڑو, Sindhi: موئن جو دڙو, English: Mound of the dead) was a city of the Indus Valley Civilization built around 2600 BC and is located in the Sindh Province of Pakistan. This ancient five thousand year old city is the largest of Indus Valley and is widely recognized as one of the most important early cities of South Asia and the Indus Valley Civilization. Mohenjo Daro was one of the world’s first cities and contemporaneous with ancient Egyptian and Mesopotamian civilizations. It is sometimes referred to as "An Ancient Indus Valley Metropolis". Contents
Mohenjo Daro was built around 2600 and abandoned around 1700 BC. It was rediscovered in the 1920s by Sir John Marshall's archaeologists. His car is still in the Mohenjo-daro museum, showing his presence, struggle, and dedication for Mohenjo-daro. Further excavations were carried out in 1945 by Ahmad Hasan Dani and Mortimer Wheeler. Mohenjo-daro in ancient times was most likely the administrative center of the ancient Indus Valley Civilization. It was the most developed and advanced city in South Asia during its peak. The planning and engineering showed the importance of the city to the people of the Indus valley.[1] Location of Indus Valley.
The Indus Valley Civilization (c. 3300–1700 BC, flowered 2600–1900 BC), abbreviated IVC, was an ancient riverine civilization that flourished in the Indus river valley in Pakistan and north-west India. Another name for this civilization is the "Harappan Civilisation". The Indus Valley civilization was one of the most ancient civilizations, on the banks of Indus River. The Indus culture blossomed over the centuries and gave rise to the Indus Valley Civilization around 3000 BCE. The civilization spanned much of Pakistan, but suddenly went into decline around 1800 BCE. Indus Civilization settlements spread as far south as the Arabian Sea coast of India, as far west as the Iranian border, and as far north as the Himalayas. Among the settlements were the major urban centers of Harappa and Mohenjo-daro, as well as Lothal. The Mohenjo-daro ruins were once the center of this ancient society. At its peak, some archaeologists opine that the Indus Civilization may have had a population of well over five million. To date, over a thousand cities and settlements have been found, mainly in the Indus River valley in Pakistan and north western India. The language of the Indus Civilization has yet to be deciphered, and the real name of the city as of other excavated cities in Sindh, Punjab and Gujarat, is unknown. "Mohenjo-daro" is Sindhi for "Mound of the Dead." (The name is also seen with slight variants such as Moenjodaro.) Mohenjo-Daro, 25 km southwest of Larkana, was center of the Indus Valley Civilization 2600 BC-1700 BC
Mohenjo-daro is a remarkable construction, considering its antiquity. It has a planned layout based on a grid of streets, which were laid out in perfect patterns. At its height the city probably had around 35,000 residents. The buildings of the city were particularly advanced, with structures constructed of same-sized sun dried bricks of baked mud and burned wood.
The public buildings of these cities also suggest a high degree of social organization. The great granary at Mohenjo-daro is designed with bays to receive carts delivering crops from the countryside, and there are ducts for air to circulate beneath the stored grain to dry it.
Close to the granary, there is a building similarly civic in nature - a great public bath, with steps down to a brick-lined pool in a colonnaded courtyard The elaborate bath area was very well built, with a layer of natural tar to keep it from leaking, and in the center was the pool. Measuring 12m x 7m, with a depth of 2.4m, it was likely used for religious or spiritual ceremonies.
The houses were protected from noise, odors, and thieves. This urban plan included the world's first urban sanitation systems.
Within the city, individual homes or groups of homes obtained water from wells. Some of the houses included rooms that appear to have been set aside for bathing, waste water was directed to covered drains, which lined the major streets. Houses opened only to inner courtyards and smaller lanes. A variety of buildings were up to two stories high.
Being an agricultural city, it also featured a large well, and central marketplace. It also had a building with an underground furnace (hypocaust), possibly for heated bathing.
Defensively Mohenjo-daro was a well fortified city. Lacking city walls, it did have towers to the west of the main settlement, and defensive fortifications to the south. Considering these fortifications and the structure of other major Indus valley cities like Harappa, lead to the question of whether Mohenjo-daro was an administrative center. Both Harappa and Mohenjo-daro share relatively the same architectural layout, and were generally not heavily fortified like other Indus Valley sites. It is obvious from the identical city layouts of all Indus sites, that there was some kind of political or administrative centrality, however the extent and functioning of an administrative center remains unclear. .
Mohenjo-daro was successively destroyed and rebuilt at least seven times. Each time, the new cities were built directly on top of the old ones. Flooding by the Indus is thought to have been the cause of destruction. T he city was divided into two parts, the Citadel and the Lower City. Most of the Lower City is yet uncovered, but the Citadel is known to have the public bath, a large residential structure designed to house 5,000 citizens and two large assembly halls.
Mohenjo-daro, Harappa and their civilization, vanished without trace from history until discovered in the 1920s. It was extensively excavated in the 1920s, but no in-depth excavations have been carried out since the 1960s.
Civilization
Artifacts
The Dancing girl found in Mohenjo Daro is an interesting artifact that is some 4500-years old. The 10.8 cm long bronze statue of the dancing girl was found in 1926 from a house in Mohenjo Daro. She was British archaeologist Mortimer Wheeler's favorite statuette, as he said in this quote from a 1973 television program: "There is her little Baluchi-style face with pouting lips and insolent look in the eye. She's about fifteen years old I should think, not more, but she stands there with bangles all the way up her arm and nothing else on. A girl perfectly, for the moment, perfectly confident of herself and the world. There's nothing like her, I think, in the world." John Marshall, one of the excavators at Mohenjo-Daro, described her as a vivid impression of the young ... girl, her hand on her hip in a half-impudent posture, and legs slightly forward as she beats time to the music with her legs and feet.[2] The artistry of this statuette is recognizable today and tells of a strange, but at least fleetingly recognizable past. As author Gregory Possehl says, "We may not be certain that she was a dancer, but she was good at what she did and she knew it". The statue could well be of some queen or other important woman of the Indus Valley Civilization judging from the authority the figure commands. "The Priest King" Wearing SindhiAjruk, ca. 2500 BC. National Museum, Karachi, Pakistan
Seated male sculpture, or "Priest King" (even though there is no evidence that either priests or kings ruled the city). This 17.5 cm tall statue is another artifact which has become a symbol for the Indus valley civilization. Archaeologists discovered the sculpture in Lower town at Mohenjo-Daro in 1927. It was found in an unusual house with ornamental brickwork and a wall niche and was lying between brick foundation walls which once held up a floor. This bearded sculpture wears a fillet around the head, an armband, and a cloak decorated with trefoil patterns that were originally filled with red pigment. The two ends of the fillet fall along the back and though the hair is carefully combed towards the back of the head, no bun is present. The flat back of the head may have held a separately carved bun as is traditional on the other seated figures, or it could have held a more elaborate horn and plumed headdress. Two holes beneath the highly stylized ears suggest that a necklace or other head ornament was attached to the sculpture. The left shoulder is covered with a cloak decorated with trefoil, double circle and single circle designs that were originally filled with red pigment. Drill holes in the center of each circle indicate they were made with a specialized drill and then touched up with a chisel. Eyes are deeply incised and may have held inlay. The upper lip is shaved and a short combed beard frames the face. The large crack in the face is the result of weathering or it may be due to original firing of this object
Current UNESCO Status
Mohenjo-daro is a UNESCO World Heritage Site. The most extensive recent work at the site has focused on attempts at conservation of the standing structures, undertaken by UNESCO in collaboration with the Department of Archaeology and Museums, as well as various foreign consultants. In December 1996, preservation work at the 500-acre site suspended after funding from the government and international organisations ran out, according to a resident archaeologist. However in April 1997, the UN Educational, Scientific and Culture Organisation (UNESCO) funded $10 million to a project to be conducted over two decades in order to protect the Mohenjo-daro ruins from flooding. This project has been a success so far. UNESCO's efforts to save Mohenjo-daro was one of the key events that led the organization to establish World Heritage Sites.
<LI id=_note-0>^ A H Dani (1992), Critical Assessment of Recent Evidence on Mohenjodaro, Second International Symposium on Mohenjodaro, 24-27 February.
^ Gregory L. Possehl (2002), The Indus Civilization: A Contemporary Perspective, AltaMira Press. ISBN 978-0759101722
As you know, this is my real area of expertise - Ancient Indus River Valley Civilization - so I am a little biased
Yeah, uh, I'm at a loss for words right now because that concept art rocks, and the last one you featured is better than I could ever have hoped for.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...anwarriors.jpg
It's from Osprey, I'm wondering what book, because this is like, the absolute perfect example we needed. These guys are absolutely brought to life how I pictured some of the remaining troops. I was hoping for some scale ideas, the pants are just amazing and well, they are simply perfect. You've really helped out AD in this. Really amazing Kervanos, really really amazing.
Kervanos, do you recall the book the image of the Ghandara is from? I don't assume it had any more Indians, but I'm curious of the scope of the book since it'd be including those Ghandara. I recognize that Promethus used them for inspiration of his own Ghandara in Res Getae, and since he had some other unique Indian looks, I'm curious if the book includes them.
Decanus
Re: FACTION: The Malikate of Sindh
Ordinarius
Originally Posted by AlphaDelta
Elite jagir mesh.
King of Kings
Artifex
Senator
Miles
Primicerius
Vicarius
Centenarius
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