battle formations_AI

[Bearhugger]

what formations are used in TFT.192 and 77BC?

[Stuie]

TFT uses a DaVinci modified version of Darth Formations for the AI.

[Bearhugger]

and in 77bc it is the same?
i think sinuhet's formations are somewhat better...

[Stuie]

Salvor needs to field that question.

[Salvor Hardin]

In 77 BC, we are using Darth's formations too. In fact, as I do not have time to play the mod I cannot tell for sure which one is better. I depend completely on your feedback.

So if there are more users demanding Sinuhet's formations I would add them to the mod provided that I got permission for it.

[Ijontichy Watanabe]

Republican and imperial formations are exactly the same.
It is also disturbing that the "first cohort" is randomly deployed, often in the first row, it should be in the last one to the left (as seen from behind). Is it feasible to implement this?

[Lysander13]

Republican and imperial formations are exactly the same.
It is also disturbing that the "first cohort" is randomly deployed, often in the first row, it should be in the last one to the left (as seen from behind). Is it feasible to implement this?

In Sinuhet's Formations: Republican and Imperial formations are different...as of course they should be.

As for the "First Cohort" being randomly deployed among all the other Cohorts. I'm pretty certain (i'd have to double check this to make sure) this is a case of the compiler not being able to distinguish between a "First Cohort" and a regular "Cohort". In other words if in the EDU both Cohorts are classified as "heavy infantry" then the compiler is unable to tell difference between the 2...so when the formation block within the formations file calls for heavy infantry it's not going to know that it should deploy the "First Cohort" last row to the left. To the compiler there is no difference between a "First Cohort" and a regular "Cohort" so that is why they are deployed randomly.

[Ijontichy Watanabe]

Thank you for your comments Lysander. After further testing, I found out that in same battles, for whatever reasons, the formation commands are sort of "blocked", maybe i'm doing something wrong.

I understand your point in relation to first cohorts. Maybe it would be a good idea to differenciate them in some way. The late republican/early imperial "first cohort" is a good departing point. It had some special features:

-- it consisted of 5 double sized centuries each led by a "primi ordines" centurio. The most senior of them was the "primus pilus", the highest ranking legionary centurio, a man with tons of military experience, advisor to the legate, etc.
-- it had the most experienced, disciplined and well-trained soldiers of the legion, it was an "elite" unit. Its men would have better pay, several decorations, a more decorated unit standard.

So the "first cohort" unit should have quite more men and better stats (maybe an experience bonus?) and be made slightly "heavier" than the rest. And please, a different unit card and higher price, since it is unrealistic to be able to train "first cohorts" anyway.

[bucellarii]

So the "first cohort" unit should have quite more men and better stats (maybe an experience bonus?) and be made slightly "heavier" than the rest. And please, a different unit card and higher price, since it is unrealistic to be able to train "first cohorts" anyway.

Hey IW!

The evidence about the size of the cohors prima is far from conclusive during our period. Indeed the sources conflict about the nominal size of the 'post-Marian' legion itself.

For example whilst Velleius, Appian and Plutarch all estimate the strength of a legion in the late Republic at 6,000 we have numerous other instances where the sources indicate a different figure.

Both Appian and Plutarch also provide accounts where the nominal strength might be read as 5,000 (i.e. App.BC iii.40, Plut. Caes. 32.1, Pomp. 60.1)

Plutarch's figures are so confused that in Caes 31.1 the figure is again 6,000!

The likely truth is that even newly raised legions rarely achieved a 'paper' strength of 6,000, or rather 6,200 and that an average of 5,000 might be more common (P A Brunt Italian Manpower)

However there are obvious implications here for the cohors prima if one accepts the likely 'paper' strength of the heavy infantry in a post-Marian legion as being 6,000 i.e. ten equally sized cohorts of 600 men.

The innovation of the cohors prima containing five double sized centuries might in fact be proper to the early Principate although Caesar himself writes:

"After uttering these words he charged first on the right wing, and about one hundred and twenty chosen volunteers of the same century followed".

Caes. BC iii.91

This excerpt could be taken to support the view that the cohors prima contained double sized cohorts during the period of our Mod.

The subject was discussed in our internal forums. At one point we were not going to include a First Cohort at all!

The team finally decided to retain the unit but keep the cohors prima at standard size. As the unit description says:

The Cohors Prima may have been larger than the other regular cohortes although this particular innovation more likely belongs to the Principate

For your information I believe the unit card should should be fixed in the forthcoming patch for 77 BC 2.0 and in 58 BC: IMPERATOR! However I will check with Salvor....

[Empedocles]

and this is why Bucelarii is the Master historian of our mod

[Lysander13]

Thank you for your comments Lysander. After further testing, I found out that in same battles, for whatever reasons, the formation commands are sort of "blocked", maybe i'm doing something wrong.

What do you mean by the formation commands are sort of blocked?

[Ijontichy Watanabe]

I mean they don't work as supposed or don't work at all.

To Bucellarii: Thank you for your answer and the time you dedicated to it. I am aware that due to the confusing information in the sources it must have been a tough issue while designing the mod. In my own and much humbler research I also couldn't find conclusive information, but it looks like it is plausible that they were larger, and that this could be good game-wise in order to further differentiate them from the normal cohort unit, thus enabling a better performance of the republican battle formation.
A nominal strength of 6000 men in ten equally sized cohorts of six centuries makes 1 century = 100 men, and no one left for the cavalry or, rather, the cavalrymen were nominally adscribed to a century. Also, I thought that a post-marian century had 80 men. But, 9 cohorts of 480 men and a cohors prima with 800 makes a total of 5120 infantry, which could be also a credible size, if you count the cavalry apart ... maybe I'm confusing different periods.

Anyway, great news that the cohors prima will get its own unit card.

Thank you all! I love this mod and the atmosphere of this forum.

[bucellarii]

Hey IW you might be interested in this post I made in our internal forums right at the start of the project. It provides a bit more background about some of the design choices:

1) The number and distribution of the legions in the Mod compared with the historical record

2) The Composition of a Legion in our Mod

Firstly here are some figures from P A Brunt:

Year

77 = 11-12 Spain 4 Gaul (Cis and Trans) 3 Macedon 4 Asia 22-23 Total
74 = 13-14 Spain 4 Gaul (Cis and Trans) 4 Macedon 8 Asia 29-30 Total
69 = /////4 Spain 4 Gaul (Cis and Trans) 2 Macedon 8 Asia ////18 Total

Brunt calculates that that Perperna had 5 legions in Spain fighting with the Sertoriani

Year 77 has 2 legions in Asia provincia and 2 in Cilicia. The increase in numbers is due to the The Mithr. War.

Prior to the Social War the average number of standing legions was say 6 (2-3 in Spain, 2 in Trans. Gaul, 1 in Macedon and absolutely none at all in Asia!). Even during the Cimbric War the max number of legions in the field was 11. So you can readily see the structural pressures on the res publica caused by such a significant increase in legion numbers as result of foreign and civil wars.

Next up - how do we portray this and what will represent a legion in game terms?

During our period the usual formation for a legion was the triplex acies (i.e. 4 cohorts in the front rank and 3 cohorts in each in the next two ranks) or if a wider frontage was required the duplex acies (i.e. two lines of five cohorts) was sometimes adopted.

In order to replicate the triplex acies on a smaller scale we will probably require a minimum of 7 cohorts (i.e. 3 in the first rank, and 2 in the next two ranks).

We will then require two cavalry auxilia units and a General already bringing us up to 10 units. However we will also require additional auxilia infantry forces.

The split between skirmisher and ‘line’ infantry will have varied from campaign to campaign. However ancient sources seem to indicate that most auxilia infantry were light/skirmisher forces. So say we will require a minimum of three-four such units, possibly deployed in advance of the main battle line or to the flanks in order to lay down harassing fire (auxilia forces also included the famous ‘professional’ or mercenary troops such as the Rhodiae Funditores, Cretenses Sagittarii and the Baliares Funditores).

So we now have stack of about14 units.

What does this represent? A single legion or a ‘Consular Army’?

Based on the numbers historically deployed in the field at the start of our Mod we certainly don’t want twenty or more stacks of SPQR forces, each comprising 14 units.

So do we say a single file represents a legion (i.e. 3 cohorts excluding our single first cohort)? With 23 legions historically deployed in 77 BCE this translates into roughly 69 game cohorts (i.e.23 multiplied by 3 if we still ignore the first cohort for the time being).

Now based on the above game army of 7 cohorts (including the first) if we divide this figure into 69 we end up with a figure of nearly 10. So we would have 10 army stacks for SPQR in 77 BCE. Based on the historical distribution this would see 5 in Spain, 2 in Gaul 1 or 2 in Macedon and 2 in Asia.

I have no idea if the maths make sense (I was rubbish in school) and even if it does is 10 SPQR stacks too many or not enough?

[Lysander13]

I mean they don't work as supposed or don't work at all.

:hmmm:....Presuming of course that the ai file is edited correctly by whichever mod happens to be using it, one should never really get this. The only instance i can think of where this would occur, would be when the human player is trying to call upon a formation without having the prerequisite troop types to have the ability to use that particular formation. I'll use an exaggerated example. Let's say your playing as a horse archer type nation and you happen to have a force that's all cavalry. As an all cavalry force you obviously cannot line up in a Roman Maniple formation. So if the human player groups his all cavalry force together and tries to call upon the Roman Maniple formation then nothing will happen or it will seem "blocked", as the player does not have the prerequisite troop types to be able to call upon this formation. That may be an exaggerated example but it serves the point more or less. If as the human player your encountering formations that you cannot get into, most likely you just don't have the prerequisite troop types to be able to call upon said formation.

[Ijontichy Watanabe]

Thank you very much Lysander and Bucelarii.
As for formations, it must be what you mention, though it seems to be also somehow terrain-related, when there are rocks or other elements on the ground.
As for the first cohort, I'm aware of how much effort you have put into game design...