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Thread: discuss about CUIRASSIERS - helping thread for CA

  1. #1

    Default discuss about CUIRASSIERS - helping thread for CA

    pictures:

    early XVIII century cuirassiers:
    (Holland/ Austria)
    http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7...sjerzy4iq0.jpg
    http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/631/austria06ly3.jpg
    http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/331/austria29bs7.jpg

    mid XVIII century cuirassiers:
    (Russia/ France/ Austria)



    here is German cuirassier from First World War:


    It is mistake... Russian cuirassier in ETW have wrong uniform:
    http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/3...sjerzy2pg3.jpg
    here is correctly Russian uniform:
    http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/3...sjerzy1ad1.jpg

    from wikipedia:

    Cuirassiers were mounted cavalry soldiers equipped with armour and firearms, first appearing in late 15th-century Europe. They were the successors of the medieval armoured knights. The term is derived from cuirass, the breastplate armour which they wore.
    The first cuirassiers did not appear very different from the medieval knights; they wore full-body armour, and the only items of equipment which differentiated them from knights were leather riding boots and the use of wheel-lock pistols, in addition to lances and swords.
    Cuirassiers wore armour long after it had become superfluous in the face of the ever-increasing use of firearms. However, the extent of the armour worn was gradually decreased so that, by the end of the 17th century, it comprised only a breastplate (the cuirass or plastron), backplate (carapace), and helmet.
    The first recorded cuirassiers were formed as 100-strong regiments of Austrian kyrissers recruited from Croatia in 1484 to serve the future Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian. They fought the Swedes and their allies in 1632 in Lützen and killed the Swedish king Gustavus Adolphus. The French introduced their own cuirassiers in 1666. By 1705, the Holy Roman Emperor's personal forces in Austria included twenty cuirassier regiments. Imperial Russia formed its own cuirassier regiments in 1732, including a Leib Guards regiment. The Russian cuirassier units took part in the Russo-Turkish War.
    Cuirassiers played a prominent role in the armies of Frederick the Great of Prussia and of Napoleon I of France. The latter increased the number of French cuirassier regiments to fourteen by the end of his reign. The actual utility of this armour is questionable. Prussian cuirassiers abandoned the cuirass before the Napoleonic Wars, while Austrian cuirassiers wore only the breastplate, and Britain's heavy cavalry wore no armour at all. Napoleon, however, thought it sufficiently useful that he had cuirassier-style armour issued to his two carabinier regiments as well after the battle of Wagram.

    Cuirassiers were generally the senior branch of the mounted arm, retaining their status as heavy cavalry - "big men on big horses". While their value as a heavy striking force in Napoleon's campaigns ensured the continued use of a number of cuirassier regiments in the French and Prussian armies during the nineteenth century, the expense and inflexibility of this arm limited their existence in other countries to Guard units.


    In 1914 there were still cuirassiers in the German army (ten regiments including the Gardes du Corps and the Garde-Kürassiers); the French (twelve regiments) and the Russian (three regiments, all of the Imperial Guard). The German and Russian cuirassiers had, by the end of the nineteenth century, come to retain their breastplates only as part of their peacetime parade dress, but the French regiments wore the cuirass (with a cloth cover) and plumed helmet on active service during the first weeks of World War I. The three Household Cavalry regiments of the British Army (1st and 2nd Life Guards and Royal Horse Guards) had adopted cuirasses after the Napoleonic Wars as part of their full dress, but never had occasion to wear this armour in battle. The retention of this magnificent but obsolete armour for active service by the French Army in 1914 appears to have reflected the prestige of this branch of the cavalry, dating back through the Franco-Prussian War to the campaigns of Napoleon. Attempts were made prior to the outbreak of war to have the cuirass restricted to parade dress, but on mobilisation, the only concession made was to wear a cover of brown or blue cloth over the steel and brass of the cuirass itself, to make the wearer less visible. The cuirass ceased to be worn by most French regiments within a few weeks of the outbreak of war, though it was not formally withdrawn until October 1915.
    The Russian and German cuirassiers ceased to exist with the overthrow of the Imperial regimes in both countries (February 1917 and November 1918 respectively). The French cuirassiers continued in existence after World War I but with their numbers reduced to the six regiments which had been most decorated during the war. Ironically five of these had achieved their distinctions serving as "cuirassiers à pied" or dismounted cavalry in the trenches. The surviving cuirassier regiments were amongst the first mounted cavalry in the French Army to be mechanised during the 1930s. Two cuirassier regiments still form part of the French Army - the 1er-11e Régiment de Cuirassiers based at Carpiagne and the 6e-12e Régiment de Cuirassiers based at Olivet.
    A few present-day mounted cavalry units continue to use cuirasses as part of their parade equipment on formal occasions. Most however have not retained the actual title of "cuirassiers", if indeed they bore it in the first place. These are the Life Guards and Blues and Royals of the British Household Cavalry; the Coraceros de la Guardia Real of the Spanish Royal Guard (created in 1875); and the Italian Corazzieri, the honour guard of the President of the Italian Republic.
    Last edited by KLAssurbanipal; October 05, 2007 at 05:14 PM.

  2. #2
    Darsh's Avatar Maréchal de l'Empire
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    Default Re: discuss about CUIRASSIERS - helping thread for CA

    French Cuirassiers during the Napoleonic wars:





    French Carabinier during the Napolenic wars:


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    Default Re: discuss about CUIRASSIERS - helping thread for CA

    Darsh, this game will be probably during only XVIII century, without Napoleonic Wars

  4. #4
    Darsh's Avatar Maréchal de l'Empire
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    Default Re: discuss about CUIRASSIERS - helping thread for CA

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiochus View Post
    Darsh, this game will be probably during only XVIII century, without Napoleonic Wars
    Wen will have Napoleon and Wellington without Napoleonic wars?
    The game will end at 1820 after the Napolenouc wars.

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    Default Re: discuss about CUIRASSIERS - helping thread for CA

    I read that end of this game will be in late XVIII century (during French Revolution)

  6. #6

    Default Re: discuss about CUIRASSIERS - helping thread for CA

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiochus View Post
    I read that end of this game will be in late XVIII century (during French Revolution)
    Napoleon Bonaparte is one of the "characters" in the game so it's reasonable to believe that his eventual end will fall within the time-frame of the game. Moreover, Total War eras do last for more than a substantial amount of time and a period shorter than a hundred years would not fall in-line with what's been done before.


    Good post, King Louise Assurbanipal, it was a good read. If I'm not mistaken, these blokes will be the elite European units though the article doesn't say how much of Bonaparte's Imperial Guard was comprised of these units. Plus, can anyone judge how the later Ottoman Janissaries would match against them?
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  7. #7

    Default Re: discuss about CUIRASSIERS - helping thread for CA

    Quote Originally Posted by Sextus Loverlord View Post
    Napoleon Bonaparte is one of the "characters" in the game so it's reasonable to believe that his eventual end will fall within the time-frame of the game. Moreover, Total War eras do last for more than a substantial amount of time and a period shorter than a hundred years would not fall in-line with what's been done before.


    Good post, King Louise Assurbanipal, it was a good read. If I'm not mistaken, these blokes will be the elite European units though the article doesn't say how much of Bonaparte's Imperial Guard was comprised of these units. Plus, can anyone judge how the later Ottoman Janissaries would match against them?

    Sextus,

    Was just reading up on this last night. Apparently none of the cuirassiers were Napoleon's bodyguard. The British were confused and thought so and the rumor spread, being carried over to today even.

    There were two guard cavalry units en ernest;

    Grenadiers a Cheval: They were the mounted "Old Guard" in practice, being men large enough to be grenadiers and hence needing larger horses, were THE heaviest of the heavy cavalry, and wore the bearskin other Grenadier Guard units wore.

    Chasseurs a cheval: Were outfitted as hussars and known as Napoleon's Brats (or something similar). They were on the same status as the Guard as well.

    There were also various allied units incorporated into the Grand Army that attained Guard Status, including a lancer unit made up of Poles that was never once defeated in battle.

    However, while being Napoleon's strong arm of the mainstream heavy cavalry, the Cuirassiers were in no way his guard.
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    Panzerbear's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: discuss about CUIRASSIERS - helping thread for CA

    what was the practical use of a cuirassiers? I mean it is quite obvious that they can not really be used as "heavy cavalry" as in the middle ages, who could steamroll through everything.

    as far as I understand, their breastplate could not stop the bullets from penetrating, nor was it effective against spears/pikes which could puncture the horsemen with great ease... if its sole purpose was to deflect the steel in close quarters combat, then why not wear a standard chain mail (shirt)? it seems to be a better solution...

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    Trax's Avatar It's a conspiracy!
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    Default Re: discuss about CUIRASSIERS - helping thread for CA

    Quote Originally Posted by .Czar View Post
    as far as I understand, their breastplate could not stop the bullets from penetrating, nor was it effective against spears/pikes which could puncture the horsemen with great ease... if its sole purpose was to deflect the steel in close quarters combat, then why not wear a standard chain mail (shirt)? it seems to be a better solution...
    We have argued about the level of protection these things offered in may threads, but as long as someone manages to find actual test results we can only guess and bombard eachother with quotes pro et contra.

    Two links that might be helpful.
    http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/ca...bodyprotection
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...1&postcount=93
    Last edited by Trax; October 17, 2007 at 01:53 PM.

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    Default Re: discuss about CUIRASSIERS - helping thread for CA

    Cuirassiers from Napoleonic Wars:

    Bavarian Cuirassier / French Cuirassier / French Carabinier / Polish Cuirassier / Russian Cuirassier.


  11. #11

    Default Re: discuss about CUIRASSIERS - helping thread for CA

    Horton III : You forgot the Guard Dragoons.
    Higgings.

  12. #12

    Default Re: discuss about CUIRASSIERS - helping thread for CA

    Theres an excellent book called Warrior A visual History of the Fighting Man by R.G. Grant that has an excellent section on french cavalrymen with pictures and descriptions of all types of French cavalry including Cuirassiers. Maybe if I have time I can scan a picture of Cuirassier equipment onto my computer and post it. Anyway, read the book especially if your interested in Frenhc cavalry.

  13. #13

    Default Re: discuss about CUIRASSIERS - helping thread for CA

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgings View Post
    Horton III : You forgot the Guard Dragoons.
    Oye

    I'm at work when I post here so forgive me shortcomings... lol it would seem in fact I did forget the Guard Dragoons...
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    Default Re: discuss about CUIRASSIERS - helping thread for CA

    I didn't hear about British Cuirassiers. This faction have this type of unit in 18th century?

  15. #15
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    Default Re: discuss about CUIRASSIERS - helping thread for CA

    i think British had heavy dragoons .
    do we know which armor was the best ?

  16. #16

    Default Re: discuss about CUIRASSIERS - helping thread for CA

    British Dragoons were not Cuirassiers. However, in the start of ETW's timeframe there were Cuirasses being worn among cavalry of all nations. It was armor's last stand, and Waterloo was the final straw in 1815. After that, only for ceremonial purposes were they worn.

    "Which Armor is best" is really not my forte, but I would say that whoever had more money, had better armor. It was only a breastplate and at times backplate that they wore. They would have been strong enough to stop a sword stroke or perhaps even a lance stroke, but were deadly if hit by musketry or cannon/artillery fire.
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  17. #17
    Spartacus the Irish's Avatar Tally Ho!
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    Default Re: discuss about CUIRASSIERS - helping thread for CA

    Quote Originally Posted by .Czar View Post
    what was the practical use of a cuirassiers? I mean it is quite obvious that they can not really be used as "heavy cavalry" as in the middle ages, who could steamroll through everything.
    Their main value was shock - though more in the sense of 'shock and awe' rather than the 'shock action' of medieval heavy cavalry. Each man originally had to be at least 1.8 metres tall, and a man such as this, fully armed and armoured, would weigh 309 pounds, and as such that curraissiers needed the largest horses, usually from Normandy. They were designed with the idea of attackinga wavering formation, the very sight of them causing the formation to break square and flee, being cut down, and the curraissiers would then exploit this break in the enemies' lines to destroy the enemy army.

    They were an elite of a bygone era, and it is true that by 1815, much of their effectiveness had gone - yet they would still triumph against most equal cavalry who were not armoured. Wearing the cuirasss would also have given the rider a sense of security, and as such a boost in confidence and morale, which, when added to the adrenaline and elan involved in a cavalry charge, would make him an even more destructive weapon of war.

    The cuirass was designed to be proof against pistol balls, swords, bayonets and lance thrusts, and it enjoyed this. However, despite the cuirass being pigeon-breasted, it offered little protection against a musket ball at under 100 yards. Supposedly, cuirasses were 'proved' after manufacture by withstanding three musket shots from 30 yards. Perhaps not surprising, few passed this stringent test. But against other cavalry, when armed with a long 97 centimetre straight sword used for thrusting, it offered quite a degree of protection, as it would be difficult to close to a range where you would be able to land a killing blow upon the curaissier which would not be deflected by the cuirass.

    So the curaiss, although a concrete example of protection against certain weapons, was perhaps more importantly a psychological weapon - a line of tall, glittering men sat astride the largest horses in France, galloping towards you, long swords pointing at your throat as you cowering in square, the hooves beating the earth in frenzy - would be rather a difficult ordeal to remain in square at the head of such an awesome display.

    Btw, any facts and figures I have are from The Waterloo Companion by Mark Adkin.
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  18. #18
    persianfan247's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: discuss about CUIRASSIERS - helping thread for CA

    i guess the cuirassiers would have an advantage against lighter cavalry like hussars in hand to hand combat and cavalry i think was involved more in screening and scouting so cavalry was more likely to ingage each other then infantry.

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