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Thread: Objectivism: The Political Side

  1. #1

    Default Objectivism: The Political Side

    Let's start off with the two things that conflict when discussing Objectivist Politics:

    1. Ethics: Self-interest
    2. Politics: Capitalism

    Translated:

    1. Man is an end in himself.
    2. Give me liberty or give me death.

    Translated again:
    1. Manevery manis an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.

    2.The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit. It is a system where no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force, and no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. The government acts only as a policeman that protects man's rights; it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use, such as criminals or foreign invaders. In a system of full capitalism, there should be (but, historically, has not yet been) a complete separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church.

    This being it means:

    1. Welfare in any form, is morally wrong, it forcefully takes the production of one to give to another.

    2. Government keep your hands off the economy, no tarriffs, no income taxes. Property taxes, ok.

    3. Sacrifice, of any sort is morally wrong. It is not a Sacrifice to instead of buying a hat for yourself you buy food for your child. It is a sacrifice if you only do it out of a sense of Moral Duty.

    The rest of the article is here.

    The source being used comes from the ARI or the Ayn Rand Institute, http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServ...ectivism_intro
    Last edited by Vladimir Lenin; October 05, 2007 at 08:14 AM.
    "I have need to be all on fire, for I have mountains of ice about me to melt." -William Lloyd Garrison

    "The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end." -Leon Trotsky

  2. #2

    Default Re: Objectivism: The Political Side

    The philosophical side is much more interesting than this and my post there is much longer, but you DO realize that without income tax we would be back in the Stone Age?

    No streets, cars, restaurants, nothing. No nation. No nice white suburban house, nice white suburban family and nice white suburban allowance.

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  3. #3
    Dayman's Avatar Romesick
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    Default Re: Objectivism: The Political Side

    Quote Originally Posted by Justinian View Post
    The philosophical side is much more interesting than this and my post there is much longer, but you DO realize that without income tax we would be back in the Stone Age?

    No streets, cars, restaurants, nothing. No nation. No nice white suburban house, nice white suburban family and nice white suburban allowance.
    Without income tax we would be fine. Tariffs would be imposed. But not under the OP's system.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Objectivism: The Political Side

    Well he just said without tariffs. I'm operating off the idea he is saying no tax except property tax.

    Though the solution would just be to hike up property tax so that it is equal to income tax + property tax.

    Every historical society has had income tax. Name me ONE that didn't, John Galt.

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  5. #5
    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    Default Re: Objectivism: The Political Side

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Let's start off with the two things that conflict when discussing Objectivist Politics:

    1. Ethics: Self-interest
    2. Politics: Capitalism

    Translated:

    1. Man is an end in himself.
    2. Give me liberty or give me death.

    Translated again:
    1. Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.

    2.The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit. It is a system where no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force, and no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. The government acts only as a policeman that protects man's rights; it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use, such as criminals or foreign invaders. In a system of full capitalism, there should be (but, historically, has not yet been) a complete separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church.

    This being it means:

    1. Welfare in any form, is morally wrong, it forcefully takes the production of one to give to another.

    2. Government keep your hands off the economy, no tarriffs, no income taxes. Property taxes, ok.

    3. Sacrifice, of any sort is morally wrong. It is not a Sacrifice to instead of buying a hat for yourself you buy food for your child. It is a sacrifice if you only do it out of a sense of Moral Duty.
    When you copy/paste entire paragraphs, you should at least give some credit to the author. Specifically the Ayn Rand institute.

    This is the second time you plagiarize a text after this one.

    My philosophy, Objectivism, holds that:

    1. Reality exists as an objective absolute—facts are facts, independent of man's feelings, wishes, hopes or fears.
    2. Reason (the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man's senses) is man's only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.
    3. Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.
    4. The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit. It is a system where no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force, and no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. The government acts only as a policeman that protects man's rights; it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use, such as criminals or foreign invaders. In a system of full capitalism, there should be (but, historically, has not yet been) a complete separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church.
    http://www.philowiki.com/wiki/index....m_Debate_Guide

  6. #6
    MasterOfNone's Avatar RTW Modder 2004-2015
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    Default Re: Objectivism: The Political Side

    America became one of the most prosperous countries in recorded history by 1901 ... and yet had no permanent incme tax until some time after that. It became strong because of the principles of a free market, unfettered by onerous taxes that rob incentive from both producer and non-producer alike.

    I think the point about self-interest is that in order to lift another we must be standing higher up than them; we do need to be independent (financially, morally, emotionally etc.) in order to not only be happier in ourselves but also to help others to our full potential. That's the environment a capitalist and limited government provide; one on which people can choose and thus grow - and also most effectively co-operate and be selfless.
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    Scorch's Avatar One of Giga's Ladies
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    Default Re: Objectivism: The Political Side

    As Garb points out, this is plagiarism and copyright breach. Please remember, John Galt, that if you are thinking of referencing an article, that it is a good idea to do that, reference it. Quote a bit of it and link to the rest, don't post the whole thing and don't post it under the pretence that it is your own.
    Last edited by Scorch; October 05, 2007 at 03:46 AM.
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  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing View Post
    Without income tax we would be fine. Tariffs would be imposed. But not under the OP's system.

    Property taxes and travel passes.

    100$ dollar pass to come into the U.S for vacation.

    50$ to come to become a citizen, then another 100$ when you finally become one.

    I'm pretty sure several mexicans would be willing to pay that much to come into the U.S. (Barring diseases, and also dangerous drug lords, or any sort of criminal that has commited a crime in the past 5 years)

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar View Post
    When you copy/paste entire paragraphs, you should at least give some credit to the author. Specifically the Ayn Rand institute.

    This is the second time you plagiarize a text after this one.

    http://www.philowiki.com/wiki/index....m_Debate_Guide

    Once again, I thank you, I've made the proper edits.

    http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServ...ectivism_intro

    Is where I got this from, not your Objectivism Debate wiki.....

    dp merged ~sapi
    Last edited by sapi; October 05, 2007 at 08:20 AM.
    "I have need to be all on fire, for I have mountains of ice about me to melt." -William Lloyd Garrison

    "The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end." -Leon Trotsky

  9. #9
    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Re: Objectivism: The Political Side

    You see, the problem with abolishing all taxes is this - businesses will be really happy until they come up against any kind of foreign competition. Then they want government subsidies so that they remain 'competitive' (an odd sort of competitiveness, that) and so that they don't go away overseas to some other country. Without taxes, you can't then subsidise the businesses, and they clear off somewhere else. So you're damned both ways.

    Seriously though, society would utterly fall apart if governments weren't able to pump money into specifically planned areas of it.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Objectivism: The Political Side

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith Darksea View Post
    You see, the problem with abolishing all taxes is this - businesses will be really happy until they come up against any kind of foreign competition. Then they want government subsidies so that they remain 'competitive' (an odd sort of competitiveness, that) and so that they don't go away overseas to some other country. Without taxes, you can't then subsidise the businesses, and they clear off somewhere else. So you're damned both ways.

    Seriously though, society would utterly fall apart if governments weren't able to pump money into specifically planned areas of it.
    We existed as a nation for a good long time without the Income Tax. We did'nt put anyone on Corporate Welfare.
    "I have need to be all on fire, for I have mountains of ice about me to melt." -William Lloyd Garrison

    "The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end." -Leon Trotsky

  11. #11
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Objectivism: The Political Side

    Uh there you are wrong it was because of corprate welfare that America was able to advaince in the Industrial revolution, it was because of corprate welfare that the USA became a country of railroads.
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
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    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Objectivism: The Political Side

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiljan Arslan View Post
    Uh there you are wrong it was because of corprate welfare that America was able to advaince in the Industrial revolution, it was because of corprate welfare that the USA became a country of railroads.
    And what did we do until Railroads, i.e 1700's to mid-early 1800's?
    "I have need to be all on fire, for I have mountains of ice about me to melt." -William Lloyd Garrison

    "The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end." -Leon Trotsky

  13. #13

    Default Re: Objectivism: The Political Side

    operated as a third world country?--- technology has changed more in the last 100 years than the past 10000 so thats probably what we did the before railroads the same thing we did all those other years before rr we used horses and rivers.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Objectivism: The Political Side

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaigidel View Post
    operated as a third world country?--- technology has changed more in the last 100 years than the past 10000 so thats probably what we did the before railroads the same thing we did all those other years before rr we used horses and rivers.
    I was talking about the Great Subsidizing for the Horse industry.
    "I have need to be all on fire, for I have mountains of ice about me to melt." -William Lloyd Garrison

    "The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end." -Leon Trotsky

  15. #15
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Objectivism: The Political Side

    The goverment funded canals and roads, also quite a few of thsoe canals also amounted to corprate welfare
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  16. #16
    Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Objectivism: The Political Side

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    1. Welfare in any form, is morally wrong, it forcefully takes the production of one to give to another.

    2. Government keep your hands off the economy, no tarriffs, no income taxes. Property taxes, ok.

    3. Sacrifice, of any sort is morally wrong. It is not a Sacrifice to instead of buying a hat for yourself you buy food for your child. It is a sacrifice if you only do it out of a sense of Moral Duty.


    1 & 2: Since these are both essentially similar (They both deal with taxes) ill adress them as one. Taxes, in all shapes in forms is a 'Mutual coercion, Mutually agreed upon' (to quote Garret hardin in his article Tragedy of the commons) It is a consensus among all people, that all people give up part of thier earnings to fund the society. It is mutually agreed upon, because if we dont pay taxes, modern society ceases to exist.

    3. Sacrifice is not 'wrong', and you are contradicting yourself to say it is. If you beleive that a mans earnings are his, then does he not have the abillity to use them on others ? If i make X amount of money, is there anything morally wrong with giving it to charity ?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Objectivism: The Political Side

    @ Kiljan, improving infrastrucutre does not a Welfare State make.

    @ Centurion, And what about the people that disagree that it is needed?

    Of course it is not morally wrong. All Objectivism says is that you don't have a duty to give to chairty.
    "I have need to be all on fire, for I have mountains of ice about me to melt." -William Lloyd Garrison

    "The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end." -Leon Trotsky

  18. #18

    Default Re: Objectivism: The Political Side

    1. Ethics: Self-interest
    1. Man is an end in himself.

    1 the constitution is based on every man being sovergien

    1. Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.

    2. Politics: Capitalism
    2. Give me liberty or give me death.
    We all know the constitutions position on this

    2.The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit. It is a system where no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force, and no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. The government acts only as a policeman that protects man's rights; it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use, such as criminals or foreign invaders. In a system of full capitalism, there should be (but, historically, has not yet been) a complete separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church.

    This being it means:

    1. Welfare in any form, is morally wrong, it forcefully takes the production of one to give to another.

    2. Government keep your hands off the economy, no tarriffs, no income taxes. Property taxes, ok.
    Again this pretty much echoes the constitution and founding fathers. The only tax at our founding were property taxes. And only property owners could vote? You know why? They knew that otherwise those without property could vote those with off their property. There was to be no welfare system in the US. No system of redistributing wealth. It was do what ever you want just dont bother your neighbor. It was still pretty much that way when I was a kid. Unless you pissed someone off and turned them in the cops didnt care.
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  19. #19
    Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Objectivism: The Political Side

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    @ Centurion, And what about the people that disagree that it is needed?
    Then they need to find another source of money, or else they can say goodbye to essential services.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Of course it is not morally wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt
    Sacrifice, of any sort is morally wrong
    So which is it ?


    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    All Objectivism says is that you don't have a duty to give to chairty.
    That depends on your understanding of duty. I know, that all are not born with equal oppurtunity given to them. I know i am lucky to be born into a working class american familly and not in poverty, and i know that it is pure chance that i wasnt born impoverished. Thus, my sense of compassion tells me to give to the poor.

  20. #20
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Objectivism: The Political Side

    Avarius I thought you said that giving money to corperations is wrong?
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

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