A Guide to the Age of Sail

[Captain Jin]

Most Frigates were fifth and sixth rates. After they revised the rating system is when those few remaining 50s became Fourth Rates. But the Napoleonic era saw a major decline in fourth rates use. I think there were more than two though because those were the ships they tried mainly using against the Americans (unsuccessfully =D) in 1812.

The abnormal use of calling fourth rates Frigates probably stems from American super frigates which in use never had less than fifty guns. I don't think Fourth rates were use much in the line in the late 1700s minus the one at the battle of the Nile.

[Lusted]

At least by 1800, the only two fourth rates in the RN were 50 gun frigates.

50 gun ships weren't frigates, they were never classed as such. The British tended to use them for flagships for far off or small commands(e.g. the Downs Command), or as part of squadrons in areas such as the East Indies. You might be getting confused with the 44-gun 2 decked 5th rate, which waqs indeed classed as a frigate.

I think there were more than two though because those were the ships they tried mainly using against the Americans (unsuccessfully =D) in 1812.

I don't think those were the old style of 50 gun ships thought it's been a while since I read up on that war. I know that several 74's were cut down to 52-gun frigates to try and combat the American super frigates.

Ah, i wonder if it is those ships(which were classed as 54's despite having an upper deck only mounted with carronades, albeit 48pdrs), that is causing confusion. They were not normal 50 gun ships, and like most razees were more powerful than quite a few ships of the same guns as them.

The abnormal use of calling fourth rates Frigates probably stems from American super frigates which in use never had less than fifty guns. I don't think Fourth rates were use much in the line in the late 1700s minus the one at the battle of the Nile.

I always see the American super frigates referred to as 44's, even though yes they did have more guns than that. 44 guns would place them as a fifth rate, though very big fifth rates.

[Ludicus]

Ships and Artillary

Click to enlarge.


Ships:
1ª Class.......Crew+-875----------Pieces, 100 and over; 2,500 lbs
2ª Class.......Crew+-750----------Pieces, 90/98; 2,300 lbs
3ª Class.......Crew 420 -720------Pieces, three versions:+- 60;+-70 and +-80;1764 lbs
4ª Class.......Crew+-350----------Pieces, 50/56; 800 lbs
5ª Class, Frigates;Crew+-250-----Pieces 36/48; +- 500 lbs
6ª Class.......Crew+-195--------- Pieces 24/30; +- 200 lbs

Artillary, range
24 pouder...............................................2,500 yards
18 pouder...............................................2,500 yards
12 pounder..............................2,000 yards
42 pound carronade..........1,170 yards
32 pound carronade........1.080 yards

Source: Lloyd,Christopher

[Roman Knight]

I beg to differ Lusted, the Leopard was most definitely frigate of fifty guns, and the Newcastle was also most definitely a frigate of 56 guns.

[Lusted]

I beg to differ Lusted, the Leopard was most definitely frigate of fifty guns, and the Newcastle was also most definitely a frigate of 56 guns

Ah yes, as I said in my post:

I don't think those were the old style of 50 gun ships thought it's been a while since I read up on that war. I know that several 74's were cut down to 52-gun frigates to try and combat the American super frigates.

Ah, i wonder if it is those ships(which were classed as 54's despite having an upper deck only mounted with carronades, albeit 48pdrs), that is causing confusion. They were not normal 50 gun ships, and like most razees were more powerful than quite a few ships of the same guns as them.

Though of course the Newcastle was a purpose built frigate. I thought you were referring more to normal 50 guns ship, not razee 50's, or the late 50 gun frigates. They were classed as 4th rates I suppose, but only really came around at the very end of the Napoleonic era.

[Roman Knight]

Could you give some examples of fourth rate ship-of-the-lines?

[Lusted]

Well 50 guns weren't really used as ships of the line by the British, more as flagships of far away stations. Cannot remember off-hand the name of the 50 gun ship that was Sidney Smiths flagship for the Downs Command around 1803-1805. The Leander, 50, was part of Nelsons fleet at the Nile and also had a 3 hour duel with a French 74 taking dispatches to Britain before it was captured. I'll find more examples later on when I get home and browse through my books. But those 50 guns ships were the most common kind throughout the 18th century in the British navy, and in the Dutch and Baltic navies. The French and Spanish didn't really use them at all.

EDIT: And I think we've both been getting confused. The Leopard of 50 guns was a traditional 50 gun ship built in 1775, and was not a 50 gun frigate like the Newcastle or Leander built during the war of 1812. I was getting confused about what ships were cut down to 58 gun frigates. The ships that were cut down were the Saturn, elephant, Excellent and Goliath as far as I can tell.

[Capt. Richards]

Pictures provided by Geoff hunt:
Fourth Rate:
50 gun




By 1797 the fourth-rate was not considered fit for the line of battle, yet that is where H.M.S. Leander (on top) found herself, at the Battle of the Nile on 1st August. Here seen passing the grounded Culloden and the brig Mutine, Leander played a distinguished part in the ensuing night action.

The 50-gun ship Trusty (on bottom) takes on stores, while to the right a sloop is careened for attention. Fifty-gun ships were too small for battleships and too slow and unweatherly for anything else, but they did have two gun decks and twenty-four pounder cannon, and so usefully filled a niche as overseas and flotilla flagships. Some were built as late as 1814.

Super Frigate:
44 gun


The first of the American super-frigates, completed at Philadelphia in 1797 to designs by Joshua Humphreys, this powerful ship could carry over 50 guns. Under Stephen Decatur’s command, she out-fought and captured the British frigate Macedonian on 25 October 1812

Fifth Rate:
Frigate


Though credited with 34 guns, this very small frigate might be better described as a corvette. Originally the French l’Unité, she was captured by HMS Inconstant in April 1796 and is here seen arriving at Ajaccio. Renamed HMS Surprise, she served until 1802 but is now best known for her subsequent fictional career in Patrick O’Brian’s novels.

[Roman Knight]

I wouldn't call the surprise a corvette, and she most definitely had 28 guns.

Also, the 44 gun frigates became fairly common as the 1800s progressed.

[Lusted]

Surprise was classed as a 6th rate, corvette wasn't really a term used at the time.

[Capt. Richards]

Surprise was classed as a 6th rate, corvette wasn't really a term used at the time.

Agreed notes are from scrimsahw gallery. Post was just to help the previous gentleman out with a small outline of the classes.

[NobleStef80]

Guess what I found you guys,check this out :
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conWebDoc.14112

and some models I found in the net:

A 74 gun ship of the line:
http://naturecoast.com/hobby/dk15000.htm

A Spanish Frigate:
http://naturecoast.com/hobby/dk14001.htm

And the Santisima Trinidad!LARGEST SHIP OF IT'S TIME:
http://naturecoast.com/hobby/dk50800a.htm

Hope you like them !!!

[Lyc1x]

Theres an error on that graffic of yours " The navies and Nations" in wich misses Portugal, wich was the 4th major navy power in the 18th century and the second in the earlies 16th. Also Spain was the first in the earlies 16th. I dont know where you got that graphics but they are historically incorrect.

[BattleDrumz]

[kennosen]

Just to clear up any confusion on HMS Surprise...( ex- L'unite ) she was classed a corvette by france, who made her.

After she was captured by HMS Inconstant, she was re-classed as a frigate.

Surprise, 1796
Type: Frigate
Armament 24 (24 x 32 pdr carronades ; 8 x 18 pdr carronades ; 2 - 4 x long sixes on the q'deck & f'castle]
Taken : April 1796 ; Disposal date or year : 1802
BM: 579 tons
Complement: 197 men & boys

Hamilton, her captain had her classed as having 28 guns, but she had considerably more than that. It was not uncommon for captains to 'fiddle' with their guns ahem... most of them changed their armament, even to the point of not disclosing it to the admiralty.

Go here for images of a prototype HMS Surprise being built, I hope to get the kit as soon as its available..

http://www.jotika-ltd.com/Pages/1024...rise_Front.htm

[Roman Knight]

I think it might be better to consider corvette, frigate, ship of the line etc. a seperate system of classification to the rating of fighting in a line, i.e. 1st rate, 2nd rate etc.

[Wagnijo]

I think it might be better to consider corvette, frigate, ship of the line etc. a seperate system of classification to the rating of fighting in a line, i.e. 1st rate, 2nd rate etc.

Indeed

Georg Albrecht Kofoeds Danish Maritime Dictionary 178/9? has this in danish:

"Frigate: A navy vessel with three masts and one battery of cannon, the largest frigates have 44 guns, of which 26 arew placed on the battery and the rest on the quarterdeck and forecastle; for a frigate to be considered good it must be very agile as it is used for cruising and
examination of the enemys movements."

Kofoed had a comission in the danish navy but served in the british navy from 1775 onboard the SOL Experiment bound for Boston, but transferred to the frigate Lynx in Antigua. In 1776 he rejoined the danish navy on the SOL Slesvig bound for Algier. In 1778 he joined the french navy on the SOL L'eveille. In 1779 he was transferred to SOL Diademe operating the North American theatre. In 1781 he served on Citoyen in the West Indies.
At this point he was second in command and could not advance further as a foreign officer, so it would have suited him if the fighting parties could make peace "soonest" as he put it.

"The interesting point in his report is not in the least that he was able to
write freely,including critical remarks about how his admiral, Comte de Grasse , had let the english fleet escape. Nobody else onboard the Citoyen could understand the writings of the danish second in command. Hence his reports assumed, primary value for the historic events of the naval warfare in the west indies during the American war of independence in which the french forces long managed relatively well"

Until they lost to Hood and Rodneys combined forces, but then Kofoed was on his way home on the frigate La Concorde.

In Europe he served on Indien and Dictateur in the Channel and Atlantic.
In 1787 he rejoined the danish navy and got his first command as captain of the frigate Hvide Ørn, then the frigate Triton in convoy service, then the frigate Freya in the West Indies.
Back in Europe he got command over the danish Mediterranean squadron
(Barbary Coast) and was consequently not present at Copenhagen 1801.

He did however skilfully manage to avoid engagement against the English forces in the Med.

His dictionary is based on contemporary french and english maritime dictionaries, so while he is not the definitive ansver he certainly knew what he was writing about.

[Alwar]

Theres an error on that graffic of yours " The navies and Nations" in wich misses Portugal, wich was the 4th major navy power in the 18th century and the second in the earlies 16th. Also Spain was the first in the earlies 16th. I dont know where you got that graphics but they are historically incorrect.

i think this too

[JaM]

Clasical 4-rate Ship of the line is HMS Centurion - Flagship of Admiral Anson during his voyage around the world. it was 1007t 60gun ship, later rebuilded to 50gun ship (after that voyage). Anson had several 4-rates during his voyage (HMS Gloucester 800t 50guns, HMS Pearl 800t 50guns,HMS Severn 800t 50 guns) HMS Centurion did great also during Battle of Finisteere.

Basically we can say that 4-rate was most used in the early 18.century, where it fullfilled the same role as 74's did later - it was an universal ship for everything. Later, when French came with their 74's, Britain was undergunned, so they also started to move from 4-rates to larger 3-rates as the universal design

[Didz]

The French preferred the Lee gauge as it gave them the chance to escape from a decisive action. This was brought on by France's numerical disadvantage to Britain throughout the 18th Century.

Thats actually the Anglo-centric explanation of the French tactic's, which of course has the advantage of implying that the French were cowards and planning their escape from battle even before it started.

A more sympathetic explanation and the one that applies more appropriately to ETW, is that French ships tended to have a higher compliment of long guns than their British counterparts, especially when the British began to remove long guns from the broadsides and replace them with relatively short range carronades.

Thus, on a ship by ship basis, French ships had an advantage in gunnery only as long as they could keep their British opponents at a relatively long range. Conversely, the British ships needed to get in close and personal to make maximum use of their high powered carronades.

Consequently, it made perfect tactical sense for the French to deploy to leeward as this would allow them to maneouvre freely to manage the distance between themselves and the enemy. (This is also true in ETW, and its actually my preferred tactic) The French also made much greater use of dismantling and bar shot than the British simply because disabling the enemy vessel meant that it would find it much harder to close the range and retained the French advantage for longer.