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Thread: Help on Kemalism

  1. #1

    Default Help on Kemalism

    I'm thinking of doing an essay on Kemalism and this kind of cult of personality that surrounds and shrouds Mustafa Kemal Ataturk in this mystique that seems to rival religion in Turkey.

    Can you say anything bad about Mohammed in Turkey, because you can't about Ataturk. The ideology in the minds of the people looks like it can put Islam in its place.

    I want to know more about this fascinating realm of thought, the man, the country and what it means today with the new party.

    Anybody? Help is mucho appreciato.
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Help on Kemalism

    I know it was a reaction against the perceived failings of the old regime, and tried to replace most Ottoman ideals and institutions in an effort to make a new beginning. Hence Islam -> Secularism and Constantinople -> Istanbul. Turkey was seen as old and rotten, and Kemal wanted to rejuvenate it by leaving the past (something the Ottomans could never do) and looking to the present and future. It seems to have worked in that respect, and Kemal is revered for doing what countless padishahs could not. Not to mention how later politicians helped add on the cult of personality both for their own aggrandizement and to give the people something to have faith in. Or something like that.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Help on Kemalism

    Thanks, that helps.

    Does anyone else know anything, I'm sure there are...?
    But mark me well; Religion is my name;
    An angel once: but now a fury grown,
    Too often talked of, but too little known.

    -Jonathan Swift

    "There's only a few things I'd actually kill for: revenge, jewelry, Father O'Malley's weedwacker..."
    -Bender (Futurama) awesome

    Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal.
    -Immortal Technique

  4. #4

    Default Re: Help on Kemalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Skinna View Post
    Can you say anything bad about Mohammed in Turkey, because you can't about Ataturk. The ideology in the minds of the people looks like it can put Islam in its place.
    You can actually criticize both, there's nothing illegal about it. But it is culturally frowned upon which, thanks to some ambiguous laws (i.e., Article 301) leads to prosecutions. And judges often make rulings in favour of the 'big picture' instead of the letter of the law, for better or worse (that's for each person to judge).

    The basic idea behind Kemalism was not to supplant Islam, but rather the semi-feudal system of government of the Ottoman Empire. Naturally, Islam was seen as part of the problem, as religion was an integral part of the way the Empire functioned (minorities defined by religions, Sultan being the Caliph, etc.). Kemalism was also used as a way of essentially bludgeoning the population into thinking in terms of citizenship, and not in terms of loyalty to clan, tribe, religious belief, etc. This partly develops from the idea of 'Ottomanism' that briefly existed in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It was basically the idea that whoever was an Ottoman citizen should be loyal to the Ottoman government. Simple enough, but it only worked so long as the system of a constitutional monarchy existed. When the Sultan threw out the constitution and became increasingly autocratic, the system fell apart.

    You have to look at Kemalism as a means to an end. It wasn't supposed to be a substitute for any existing religion or culture, something missed or ignored by Turks and non-Turks alike. Kemalism was meant as a way to give the citizens of the new Republic a fresh start, with none of the baggage (religious, ethnic, or otherwise) of the now-defunct Empire. Many of the problems in Turkey today actually result from baggage that wasn't eliminated by Kemalism, for whatever reason.

    I'd suggest that you research the Pillars of Kemalism (basically the manual for how to be a Kemalist). If it seems 'religious', it's because it was meant to be easy to swallow for the rather pious public in Turkey in the 1920s and 1930s. The idea was to dress up the secular ideas in religious clothes, because that was what people would most likely respond to. That Kemalism actually became a personality cult is probably an unexpected and likely undesired side effect, but it also shows how successful the indoctrination (or de-indoctrination, depending how you look at it) really was. The current tensions in Turkey are likely the result of the pendulum having swung from one extreme to the other and now settling somewhere in the middle. At least that's my hope.

    Oh, and the willingness to follow a strong leader is a cultural thing, both for Turkic peoples and the Middle East in general. It's why many Middle Eastern countries have Presidents-for-life and why they're so widely accepted. Being a charismatic individual is extremely important for success in that part of the world. You'll notice that those leaders that weren't charismatic enough often didn't last long, and were either voted out or overthrown (e.g., Shah of Iran, King of Iraq whose name escapes me, etc.). But too much charisma, and you'll be seen as a threat by other factions, and you'll get overthrown anyways (Adnan Menderes in 1950s Turkey).

    Hope that helps a little.
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  5. #5
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Help on Kemalism

    Now if you call Kemal gay expect the police to look the other way as several nationalistic turks beat you to a bloddy pulp.
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    Default Re: Help on Kemalism

    Now if you call Kemal gay expect the police to look the other way as several nationalistic turks beat you to a bloddy pulp.
    The equivalent situation could happen in most countries, it's not really exclusive to Kemalism.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Help on Kemalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiljan Arslan View Post
    Now if you call Kemal gay expect the police to look the other way as several nationalistic turks beat you to a bloddy pulp.
    Again, not illegal, but clearly frowned upon.

    Turkey in this respect is more Eastern-minded, where there is the written law and the unwritten or traditional law. It is changing, but it takes time. Respect is very important in Turkish culture. For instance, you can criticize Mustafa Kemal all you want (it's done regularly by everyone in Turkey), but if you cross the line between criticism and slander, well, you reap what you sow, as it were. The people who beat the crap out of you will be charged with assault, nowadays, but you should also have known better than to shoot your mouth off. Make sense?

    Turkish society isn't perfect, and like any other it has its good parts and bad. Luckily, the good have begun to outweigh the bad, but it takes time.
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    Default Re: Help on Kemalism

    Actually I woudn't blame them for beating some guy up for saying that it be like someone saying that about Washington or Jefferson (now Jefferson was definatly a deadbeat.)
    according to exarch I am like
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    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
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    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Help on Kemalism

    Exactly. Until the 1980s, the problem in Turkey was that those administering the beating weren't punished. That's where the whole 'Deep State' idea comes from. It still is a problem in Turkey, just not as big a problem as 20 years ago. The fact that honour killings, for instance, are being cracked down on heavily in recent years is a perfect example of this progress.

    But let's try not to hijack the thread.
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    Default Re: Help on Kemalism

    THe only thing I disagree with Ataturk about was his secularization I feel went a little to far. But other than that I think he did everything good. (JP had this hairbrained idea that Ataturk actualluly ruined your countries economy for some reason.)

    I sometimes think that he deserves to have a film made about him.
    according to exarch I am like
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
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    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Help on Kemalism

    With Robert DeNiro of course.

    Thanks again, but my question now is that can I say explicitly that these rules regarding the Father of the Turks aimed at building a deeper rapport between the Islamist-rooted AKP and the country?

    It seems Nationalism is on par with Islamism, something you don't see in many Islamic countries, (Is Turkey still the most homogeneously Muslim country?) because that to me looks like a strong, very pragamatic policy in part of almost every government that holds up Ataturk.

    My last question is has there ever been a non-"Kemalist" leader and if so, how'd that go?

    Thanks again, your banter is most welcome.


    EDIT: Edward Norton! He could that role mayhaps...
    But mark me well; Religion is my name;
    An angel once: but now a fury grown,
    Too often talked of, but too little known.

    -Jonathan Swift

    "There's only a few things I'd actually kill for: revenge, jewelry, Father O'Malley's weedwacker..."
    -Bender (Futurama) awesome

    Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal.
    -Immortal Technique

  12. #12

    Default Re: Help on Kemalism

    Banderas. I think he is good for this role if we make him blonde.

    I am not aware that there are rules regarding Ataturk. Just, you could not talk negatively about him if you want to live in "Turkish" society.

    Every Turk respect him. Sure, he was very good military man and politician. He saved Turkey.

    However, he is not a God. Every word he said must not be right. He could be wrong. In Turkey, Ultra-Kemalists think and behave as Secularism is a religion and he is a probhet.

    I think "Kemalist" leaders comes from CHP mostly, and Army. For "Non-Kemalist" leaders; we can say Menderes, Ozal, Erdogan.
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Help on Kemalism

    yep, Kemalism is different and respect for Ataturk is different. For me, he could kick more grec butt at 1922 but he prefered peace. Don't forget that the time that he lived was the time of powerful dictators and democracies weren't so powerful.

    1930's were the time of Hitlers and Francos and most Europeans were in awe with them.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Help on Kemalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiljan Arslan View Post
    THe only thing I disagree with Ataturk about was his secularization I feel went a little to far. But other than that I think he did everything good. (JP had this hairbrained idea that Ataturk actualluly ruined your countries economy for some reason.)
    I think that was a product of the times. The only way to snap the people of the new Republic out of their medieval social structure was to enact some pretty draconian measures. It's like slapping someone across the face to get their attention.

    Ataturk's biggest contribution was that he restored confidence to the people of Turkey and allowed them to wield this confidence freely (no occupation by foreign powers). In terms of economy, Ataturk's reforms were incredible. Turkey went from essentially and entirely agrarian base to an economy that had a viable heavy- and light-industry sector. And he did it without harming the agricultural sector. Even today, Turkey is one of the few nations in the world that can actually feed itself completely with local produce (most other countries have to import to one degree or another). But Turkey also has a very competitive manufacturing industry, and is a world leader in construction. Granted not all of this happened in Ataturk's lifetime, but that shows how effective a leader he really was.

    I sometimes think that he deserves to have a film made about him.
    There was supposed to be a movie made about Ataturk, with Banderas playing the role. It was scuttled by pressure from Armenian and Greek lobby groups in the US. The script for the movie was later modified (and not as heavily as one might think) and used for the movie Alexander.

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Skinna
    Thanks again, but my question now is that can I say explicitly that these rules regarding the Father of the Turks aimed at building a deeper rapport between the Islamist-rooted AKP and the country?

    It seems Nationalism is on par with Islamism, something you don't see in many Islamic countries, (Is Turkey still the most homogeneously Muslim country?) because that to me looks like a strong, very pragamatic policy in part of almost every government that holds up Ataturk.
    Turkey is a little peculiar when it comes to 'Islamism'. Islamism in Turkey has its roots in the pious backlash against the secularization of Turkey in the 20s and 30s. Because this backlash was crushed the way it was, it became less of a dispute over the role of religion in Turkish society and more of a struggle for power, which is why Turkey has polarized into the secular and the religious.

    Nor is Turkey as homogenously Muslim as you might think. Yes, something like 98-99% of the population is Muslim, but within that you have Sunnis, Shiites, Alevis, Sufis, and a whole plethora of other sub-groups. And some of these groups really don't like each other, Sunnis and Alevis, for instance. It gets even more complicated when people like the Alevis, who are a minority compared to the Sunnis, turn out to be the less conservative group, and thus tend to support the secularists much more than the mainstream Sunnis.

    My last question is has there ever been a non-"Kemalist" leader and if so, how'd that go?
    Some were mentioned earlier. CHP is Ataturk's party, and thus the most likely to follow Kemalism to the letter, but you'll note that they've been increasingly marginalized in recent years. They always seem to get about the same percentage of the vote.

    As for how the non-Kemalist leaders did, it depends on the leader, and there were quite a few of them. I'll just quickly run through the ones that white-wolf listed. Adnan Menderes, for instance, was the first non-Kemalist Prime Minister, but he was overthrown by a coup and hanged in 1961 (though posthumously pardoned in 1990, IIRC).

    Turgut Ozal was around in the late 1980s and early 1990s (IIRC), and was a Kurd to boot. He was instrumental in opening up the Turkish economy by eliminating trade restrictions aimed at protecting Turkish industries.

    Erdogan, as you know, is PM right now. AKP has done very well with regards to the Turkish economy, and it has also done fairly well with the EU-required reforms. With the latter, AKP has been pretty good at changing the mentality of the average person in Turkey. They are viewed with some suspicion, particularly by secularists, but I personally think that the latter (and the army) don't give the Turkish public enough credit. The army and the secular establishment are worried that the public isn't ready for more freedom (like lifting the headscarf ban, for instance), and fear that the mob may do something stupid (a la Islamic Revolution in Iran). I think that there is enough of a secular base in the population that it can balance out the Islamists, and thus am not that concerned. I worry more about the problem of peer pressure in Turkey. Islamist societies (like Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi, etc.) tend to force secular elements to conform to their norms, and often aren't flexible enough to accept that some people may not want to live the same way as you. There are enough conservatives in Turkey that pressure on the rest of society could be a problem. But Turkey is going to have to take the risk sooner or later, so it might as well be now.

    I see it this way: secularism and mild Islamism are like a bride and groom. The tension we see right now in Turkey is nothing more than pre-wedding jitters. Might as well take the plunge. You can always divorce later.
    Last edited by Crimson Scythe; October 03, 2007 at 03:12 PM.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Help on Kemalism

    good informative posts crimson; cant rep so I thought I would post

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Help on Kemalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Scythe View Post
    I think that was a product of the times. The only way to snap the people of the new Republic out of their medieval social structure was to enact some pretty draconian measures. It's like slapping someone across the face to get their attention.

    Ataturk's biggest contribution was that he restored confidence to the people of Turkey and allowed them to wield this confidence freely (no occupation by foreign powers). In terms of economy, Ataturk's reforms were incredible. Turkey went from essentially and entirely agrarian base to an economy that had a viable heavy- and light-industry sector. And he did it without harming the agricultural sector. Even today, Turkey is one of the few nations in the world that can actually feed itself completely with local produce (most other countries have to import to one degree or another). But Turkey also has a very competitive manufacturing industry, and is a world leader in construction. Granted not all of this happened in Ataturk's lifetime, but that shows how effective a leader he really was.



    There was supposed to be a movie made about Ataturk, with Banderas playing the role. It was scuttled by pressure from Armenian and Greek lobby groups in the US. The script for the movie was later modified (and not as heavily as one might think) and used for the movie Alexander.



    Turkey is a little peculiar when it comes to 'Islamism'. Islamism in Turkey has its roots in the pious backlash against the secularization of Turkey in the 20s and 30s. Because this backlash was crushed the way it was, it became less of a dispute over the role of religion in Turkish society and more of a struggle for power, which is why Turkey has polarized into the secular and the religious.

    Nor is Turkey as homogenously Muslim as you might think. Yes, something like 98-99% of the population is Muslim, but within that you have Sunnis, Shiites, Alevis, Sufis, and a whole plethora of other sub-groups. And some of these groups really don't like each other, Sunnis and Alevis, for instance. It gets even more complicated when people like the Alevis, who are a minority compared to the Sunnis, turn out to be the less conservative group, and thus tend to support the secularists much more than the mainstream Sunnis.



    Some were mentioned earlier. CHP is Ataturk's party, and thus the most likely to follow Kemalism to the letter, but you'll note that they've been increasingly marginalized in recent years. They always seem to get about the same percentage of the vote.

    As for how the non-Kemalist leaders did, it depends on the leader, and there were quite a few of them. I'll just quickly run through the ones that white-wolf listed. Adnan Menderes, for instance, was the first non-Kemalist Prime Minister, but he was overthrown by a coup and hanged in 1961 (though posthumously pardoned in 1990, IIRC).

    Turgut Ozal was around in the late 1980s and early 1990s (IIRC), and was a Kurd to boot. He was instrumental in opening up the Turkish economy by eliminating trade restrictions aimed at protecting Turkish industries.

    Erdogan, as you know, is PM right now. AKP has done very well with regards to the Turkish economy, and it has also done fairly well with the EU-required reforms. With the latter, AKP has been pretty good at changing the mentality of the average person in Turkey. They are viewed with some suspicion, particularly by secularists, but I personally think that the latter (and the army) don't give the Turkish public enough credit. The army and the secular establishment are worried that the public isn't ready for more freedom (like lifting the headscarf ban, for instance), and fear that the mob may do something stupid (a la Islamic Revolution in Iran). I think that there is enough of a secular base in the population that it can balance out the Islamists, and thus am not that concerned. I worry more about the problem of peer pressure in Turkey. Islamist societies (like Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi, etc.) tend to force secular elements to conform to their norms, and often aren't flexible enough to accept that some people may not want to live the same way as you. There are enough conservatives in Turkey that pressure on the rest of society could be a problem. But Turkey is going to have to take the risk sooner or later, so it might as well be now.

    I see it this way: secularism and mild Islamism are like a bride and groom. The tension we see right now in Turkey is nothing more than pre-wedding jitters. Might as well take the plunge. You can always divorce later.
    Now I see why you sdon't like Armenians. I'd get pissed off too.
    according to exarch I am like
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
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    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Help on Kemalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiljan Arslan View Post
    Now I see why you sdon't like Armenians. I'd get pissed off too.
    I like them just fine, it's their lobbyists that I can't stand, particularly the ones in the US. They see anything that isn't anti-Turkish as being the devil's work (or so it seems).

    And I also think it's unfortunate that they get as much support as they do from the average Armenian living abroad who often doesn't realize that Turkish-Armenian relations would be much better without the lobbyists' constant and active sabotage. Same goes for the Hellenic lobbies.

    But, what can you do?
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Help on Kemalism

    I'd make the film and if any Armenians or Hellenes complained I'd give them the finger.
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Help on Kemalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiljan Arslan View Post
    I'd make the film and if any Armenians or Hellenes complained I'd give them the finger.
    They have a knack for getting financial supporters to withdraw funding. It's kind of hard to get a big-budget movie off the ground when you don't have a major studio backing you up, you know?

    They also heap pressure on the actors to pull out of the movie (as happened with the Ataturk movie - Banderas pulled out under pressure from the Armenian and Hellenic lobby groups). It's even harder to make a movie without actors.

    There are plenty of movies about Ataturk, but all of them are Turkish-made. A Hollywood movie has a much broader audience. And the Armenian and Hellenic lobbies know this, hence their efforts to prevent it.
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Help on Kemalism

    I can understand the Hellenes being up in Arms to an extent because many of the Hellenes in the US are descendents of those whos families had lived thousands of years in Asia Minor and then when that treaty of exchange happaned they either found greece to be too poor or else too alien because of the launguage differences and came to the USA however never fully forgiving Ataturk for his part. (BTW there you guys also had a acceptable excuse unlike with the Armenians in WW1 because there is well documented evidence that they indeed helped the Hellenic armies that invaded Turkey.) Now with the Armenians I don't understand I mean Ataturk had no involvement in the deportation/genocides it was the 3 pashas and I think he did in fact have a hand in helping the Armenian vegance movement assasinate one of them.
    according to exarch I am like
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
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    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

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