Whaling and the trade system.

[Lias_solano]

I always like to make a huge trade empire when im playing Rome or Med2.The sight of all those little boats and carts doing their business and making me pots of cash is always pleasing.
I was a little dissapointed with the merchants in Med2 though.Just plonking a merchant on a resource and then forgetting about them just didnt do it for me.Im hoping for a much better trade system in Empires,as a lot of the wars of this period were all about fighting to protect your trade resources.I think maybe adding trade discussions to a diplomats role would be the way to go.Something a bit more detailed than simple trade right agreements.I know the game is total WAR and people may think that things like the trade system should play second fiddle to the battle AI.But i have noticed a lot of people on this and other forums want much more indepth features where things like trade and diplomancy are concerned.
Im also hoping that Whaling ships will be availabe,as whaling was huge at this time.But make the whole whaling trade resource more indepth.Instead of just placing a Whaling ship on a picture of a whale on the campaign map.Let them go out as a fleet to where the whales would be,then getting to a wahling station to process their catch.then back out again.All the time battling the elements,pirates and rival factions.I admit my knowledge on whaling is tiny,but i feel it could add another immersion aspect to the game that we really are in the 1700's
Oh,and a moby dick easter egg would be cool as well

Lias

[Kratos]

I agree 100% about the fact that trade need more depth. I had never given wahling a thought, but it too seems like a great idea to me

[magpie]

Hi,while I agree whaling was a big historical trade,some how I just cannot see it getting past the CA/SEGA public relations dept. With most of the world against whaling can you imagine the outcry if an internationly popular game publisher was seen to promote it.regards magpie.

[micaelis13]

There is a difference between promoting the practice and representing it historically. For instance, the Latifundia was available in Rome: Total War, which was a slave-run agricultural business. In Medieval II you can place merchants over slave resources in Africa. Was there a major outcry? No, because these things really did occur, and giving a faithful REPRESENTATION of that business is NOT the same as promoting it in your company. I think whaling should be available as well as a better slave-trade system. Unfortunately in Kingdoms they did not add encomiendas for the Spanish faction.

[magpie]

There is a difference between promoting the practice and representing it historically. For instance, the Latifundia was available in Rome: Total War, which was a slave-run agricultural business. In Medieval II you can place merchants over slave resources in Africa. Was there a major outcry? No, because these things really did occur, and giving a faithful REPRESENTATION of that business is NOT the same as promoting it in your company. I think whaling should be available as well as a better slave-trade system. Unfortunately in Kingdoms they did not add encomiendas for the Spanish faction.

Good reply,I suppose CA really would not mind after all we have had burning pigs etc why not whaling maybe one of their reps would like to comment.regards magpie.

[Agent Provocateur]

Good idea. With the addition of naval battles I really hope they make trade and seaborne trade critical to the game. For so many countries the oceans opened up Europe to the world and established their positions.

If Holland is bolckaded, a relatively easy thing to try to do it would be crippled, being a maritime nation stuck on the Continent. Britain estblished its later dominance via sea power. South America turned the Iberian peninsula from a struggling European backwater into superpowers.

I really want to see maritime policy having a serious impact this time. If you can't access the seas you shold be seriously gimped.

[Hohenstaufen]

If you can't access the seas you shold be seriously gimped.

You should but not had THAT serious impact. Prussia for example at the ages we speak (18th) had non existant colonies and her navy was somethig of a joke......
And actually Prussia was a small state compared to other european powers.Still though she managed to win in all the wars of 18th century.

And do you know(this question is general not directed to you agent ) how prussia survived other than it's mighty army? It's the thing we call DIPLOMACY. Even if you are crippled on a maritime basis, this does not mean you are doomed.....

[Agent Provocateur]

Fair enough, but, if you are a country like France (to a large degree), Britain (especially), The Netherlands (especially), Spain (to a major degree), Portugal (especially) and most/any of the Scandinavian countries naval blockades will have direct and very negative impact on your country.

Whilst Central European nations certainly did thrive without access to the ocean they did so in a closed environment. You are right diplomacy counted for a lot, however, even here maritime nations have distinct advantages. The Netherlands, for example, was able to punch way, way, way above its military weight because of its maritime trade and the power money brings. Britain never had much of an army and still established a postion of dominance in European politics and diplomacy thanks to its maritime successes. You mention Prussia and diplomacy keeping it safe, a major part of that diplomacy were the huge subsidies Britain gave (and Austria, Russia, Portugal, Spain,...) to keep it armed and fighting in different wars against the French. Money goes a long, long way.

[magpie]

Hi,maritine trade would be of huge importance to a lot of the factions,Now apart from blockading your enemys ports,would it be possible for naval powers to attack merchant shipping on the high sea,s. I would love to be able to board a rich merchant ship and take it as a prize.All that loot would be usefull regards magpie.

[Agent Provocateur]

Yes, income from privateering shoul.d be included. Though in fairness, it rarely amounted to a huge amount. However, successfully blockading a nation should open up their markets and resources to you and thus increase your income.

So, keeping the English out of the Spice Islands and Indonesia assures Dutch prosperity. Locking the French out of India plays a major role in underwritting British government coffers.

Also, should the game replicate new ways of financing government expenditure? The National Debt allowed Britain to finance its huge navy, other countries did not go down this line till later by wich time it was too late to compete with Britain(?). Might turn into a bit of a CIV-alike though.

[Roman Knight]

Maybe some kind of system to control trade routes, areas of sea and the use of convoys could solve this problem without getting too complicated.

[Empress Meg]

Apparently, the economic system will be more advanced in this game then in the prior releases. See here. Of course, they will not say more, but at least they have taken note of what Lias_solano mentioned about some folks wanting a more in-depth campaign.

Devoirs The Empress

[Semper_Crecis]

And do you know(this question is general not directed to you agent ) how prussia survived other than it's mighty army? It's the thing we call DIPLOMACY.

Surely Prussia is an army with a nation, not a nation with an army?

[english tyrant]

as a lot of the wars of this period were all about fighting to protect your trade resources

wow somebody other than me picked up on that fact!

[Lias_solano]

Great minds must think alike English tyrant

Ive been thinking more about the whaling aspect.I think in order to limit the micro-managment of whaling fleets,something along the lines of the following could work well.

This is assuming that ships can be placed into stacks/fleets as in previous games.

1.Build a few whaling ships at your port and place them into a single stack to create your whaling fleet.
2.If your starting position is a long way from the whaling grounds,or you just dont wont to take the risk of sending the fleet out un-protected,you can add fighting ships to the stack to act as an escort.But you would have to gauge the risk versus reward factor.If the fighting ships have a high upkeep.(as they should) then the whalers might not make enough money to make their trip worth while.I mean that if the escorts upkeep is £3000 and the whalers are only making £2000 then its not cost effective,so maybe the whalers will have to defend themselves.
3.once the fleet is ready how you want it,go to the fleet info screen and there could be a button that says "start expedition"
4.And off they go.the ai should know where the designated whaling grounds are and your fleet will head out.
5.The Ai controlled whaling fleet will have a full cargo hold after say 1 or 2 turns at the whaling site,depending how long a turn will be in the game.and once full will make its way to the nearest friendly,allied, or trade rights granted port and sell their wares.Then next turn they will head out again.Troop losses would automatically be sorted out so that after each port trip,the fleet is 100% crewed and repaired(costs coming out of the players bank as normal).This saves the player having to manage the fleet all the time and represents the whaling captains recruiting more crew and making repairs while they are in dock.
6.the only time you should have to get involved again is if the stack comes under attack,then you fight the battle.

that is a very simple idea but i think something along those lines would be fine.Minimum micro-managment for the player,so he can concentrate capturing and sinking enemy whalers himself

Lias