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Thread: Independence for anyone!

  1. #1
    Panzerbear's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Independence for anyone!

    I am wondering what do people here think about certain nationalities' rights for independence.

    In other words, is it a bad thing if, for example, the Basques get their independece from Spain, Kurds got their independence from Turkey, Chechens got their independence from Russia, Northern Irishmen got their independence from the UK, Albanians got their independence from Serbia, and so on and so forth. In fact, hardly any country nowadays doesnt have some kind of minority that wants its own state.

    For exampe, will it be bad if the amount of countries in Europe increases two-fold? What do you think?

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  2. #2

    Default Re: Independence for anyone!

    I think it is interesting that Europe is trying to unify into the EU while the rest of the world is trying to seperate.

  3. #3
    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Independence for anyone!

    I'm beginning to think that anything that may throw us off our current course would be good.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

  4. #4
    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Independence for anyone!

    Its terrible. No people deserve independence naturally. Nationalism is bad, period. If you are a minority in your country, but your country respects your beliefs, language, religion and so on--there is no cause to ask for your own Nation. Sadly most of the time that is the case, yet Minorities demand it anyways. Again I say, you don't deserve or have a right to a nation simply because your ethnicity exists, the only time a new Nation should be created is if the current one is overwhelmingly oppressive and doesn't look like it will change anytime soon. So in conclusion: It depends on a case by case basis, but Nationalism for the sake of Nationalism is wrong 100% of the time.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Independence for anyone!

    Usually, nationalist groups in a region have a strong historical claim to independence. They should be granted independence. Random groups that don't like their government with no historical basis have no right to nationhood.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Independence for anyone!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sétanta View Post
    Usually, nationalist groups in a region have a strong historical claim to independence. They should be granted independence. Random groups that don't like their government with no historical basis have no right to nationhood.
    For once, I agree with you in entirely.

    In Pakistan, we have about 6 large nationalities. If each asks for independence, we'd end up becoming poorer versions of Monaco and the Vatican
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Independence for anyone!

    The more countries there are the more wars there will be due to more competition. In my opinion, all peoples which do not have much difference in culture should have a single country.


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  8. #8

    Default Re: Independence for anyone!

    Quote Originally Posted by .Czar View Post
    I am wondering what do people here think about certain nationalities' rights for independence.

    In other words, is it a bad thing if, for example, the Basques get their independece from Spain, Kurds got their independence from Turkey, Chechens got their independence from Russia, Northern Irishmen got their independence from the UK, Albanians got their independence from Serbia, and so on and so forth. In fact, hardly any country nowadays doesnt have some kind of minority that wants its own state.

    For exampe, will it be bad if the amount of countries in Europe increases two-fold? What do you think?
    If the majority of a nation want their independance, they should have it. I have explained to you at least once before the majority of Northern Ireland does not want it.

  9. #9
    Sidmen's Avatar Mangod of Earth
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    Default Re: Independence for anyone!

    I said this in another thread, and got yelled at because of it. An ethnic group only have the right to be thier own country if they can do a couple of things.
    1. Have thier own economy, without it they're better off subjucated.
    2. Be able to defend themselves, (wether by having a good military, or allies, or no hostile enimies, alla Swiss)
    3. Be able to separate, wether with a rebellion, or by treaty, or by having no opposition

    Thats it, everything else is just emotional reactions.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Independence for anyone!

    Wait, hang on, under those definitions Iceland doesn't deserve independance. Nor does Vatican City, Andorra, Monoco, Bhutan, etc. etc.

  11. #11
    Sidmen's Avatar Mangod of Earth
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    Default Re: Independence for anyone!

    Vatican City has a stable economy exporting religion, has no hostile neibors, and is already separate from everyone else.

    Iceland has good allies (US, canada, ect...) Is already separate and has a great economy involving fishing and a number of other things... Not to mention it has no hostile enemies.

    Please, if you think any other countries don't fit tell me.

    <edit> Didn't see the other names you listed.

    Andorra isn't independant per say... But regardless, it has great relationships with its neibors. and a Stable economy

    Monoco, again, is barely independant, but has a great ally that allows it to be independant. Has no enemies and a great tourism based economy.

    Bhutan has no hostile enemies, a great economy, and good allies. It is already independant so doesn't need to worry about that.

    <Note>I didn't say that they had to go it alone, or that size matters.
    Last edited by Sidmen; September 27, 2007 at 02:58 AM.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Independence for anyone!

    Bhutan's economy is almost entirely uneducated peasant farming, the type found anywhere on Earth. It borders China, with a history of annexing nations, Bangladesh, which is incredibly unstable, Burma, incredibly unstable and ruled by a military regime.

    It simply doesn't meet your criteria. Yet it is independant. Therefore your criteria are balls.

  13. #13
    Sidmen's Avatar Mangod of Earth
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    Default Re: Independence for anyone!

    Bhutan has a rapidly growing economy (8-12% yearly) that, yes, includes farming. However it sells large ammounts of hydroelectric power to India and China, making it a valuable asset that neither would allow to fall into the other's hands. Making india and China its allies, if by necessity. As china wouldn't dare take it, for risk of starting a war with india, and India prepared to keep it independant if such a case were to occur.

    Besides, I never said that there arn't countries that don't deserve Independance. I know of one country in particular, just to the east of India (actually, I think India sourounds it entirely), with a piss poor economy, no military, and no real allies. Its only independant because its so poor that nobody wants to risk india's wrath to obtain it.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Independence for anyone!

    Bangladesh?

  15. #15
    Sidmen's Avatar Mangod of Earth
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    Default Re: Independence for anyone!

    That was the one... I was watching a feed the children, or teach the women program a little while ago and decided that the country probibly couldn't exist without massive forein aid. That was a while ago I guess, because the country has improved since then...

    But yeah, from the program I learned that It separated from India, and India's GDP percapita jumped dramaticly. Apparently it was a poor country that only exists because nobody wanted them.
    "For the humble doily is indeed the gateway to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER!"

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  16. #16

    Default Re: Independence for anyone!

    You are aware that it is one of the most populated and densely populated countries on the planet? Also, you need to watch more respectable television prgrammes. Bangladesh declared independance from Pakistan, not India.
    Last edited by removeduser_487563287433; September 27, 2007 at 05:04 AM.

  17. #17
    Yuiis's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Independence for anyone!

    I think its more simple than everything you guys explain here in this thread. If a democratic majority of people in a region "x" want independence they should have it, period. That is the most important reason they should have it, and it is the reason that prevails over any other. It is also the reason that leading states fear the most, because they have no real arguments against it. Then come other reasons like a unique culture, language, social aspects, economy and whatever you want to add to it, and that make that proposition become more solid.

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  18. #18
    Sidmen's Avatar Mangod of Earth
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    Default Re: Independence for anyone!

    That is an emotional responce. Someone should have somthing, just because? Sorry, thats not how it works... The needs of the majority prevail over the needs of a minority. If the majority don't care if someone leaves and takes a chunk of thier country (such was the case of the downfall of the British Empire) its fine. But when, say, a large ethnic group who are the majority in a given area want to break apart from the current country - when that country opposes it - there will be war. Or the ethnic group just remains part of the parent country.

    My guidelines are very loose and seem to apply to almost every country on the face of the earth. The ones it doesn't apply to, have failed economies - because thats the only one that can be dodged with any regularity.

    You are aware that it is one of the most populated and densely populated countries on the planet? Also, you need to watch more respectable television prgrammes. Bangladesh declared independance from Pakistan, not India.
    Yes, I did, doesn't change the fact that they were a failed state (at least in my eyes) at the time of the broadcast. Looks like they're starting to turn it around, good for them.. I probibly assumed the India part (due to its proximity to india).
    "For the humble doily is indeed the gateway to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER!"

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  19. #19

    Default Re: Independence for anyone!

    Starting to turn it around? The government is currently dissolved under emergency powers and months of rioting.

    Not to be rude... you don't entirely know what you're talking about, do you?

  20. #20
    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Independence for anyone!

    Quote Originally Posted by Scar Face View Post
    Its terrible. No people deserve independence naturally. Nationalism is bad, period. If you are a minority in your country, but your country respects your beliefs, language, religion and so on--there is no cause to ask for your own Nation. Sadly most of the time that is the case, yet Minorities demand it anyways. Again I say, you don't deserve or have a right to a nation simply because your ethnicity exists, the only time a new Nation should be created is if the current one is overwhelmingly oppressive and doesn't look like it will change anytime soon. So in conclusion: It depends on a case by case basis, but Nationalism for the sake of Nationalism is wrong 100% of the time.
    The government gets it's power from the people. Once the people no longer want the government, they can get rid of it whenever they like.

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