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Thread: Portugal - Faction Thread.

  1. #201
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Portugal - Faction Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon_12 View Post
    as if portugal is indeed similar to other....
    I will not talk about the game.
    But, historically speaking, that question also deeply irritates the historians:

    In the introduction of the the book "Portuguese Empire,1415-1808", A.J. Ruseel-Wood, Prof. of History at Johns Hokins University, says:

    " Portugal is a province of Spain, isnīt it? " The capital of Brazil is Buenos Aires." " They speak Spanish in Brazil" "Very few people speak Portuguese:itīs a Spanish dialect". Such statements testify the ignorance concerning the Portuguese Empire and the Portuguese-speaking world.
    Consultation of the index of a recently published compendious (1536 pages) volume modestly entitled A History of Word Societies (by John P. McKay, Bennet D.Hill, John Buckler,Boston:Houghton Mifflin,1984) reveals only ten references for the span 1415-1975 under "Portugal". The index to the Pelican History of the World (Revised Edition. Harmondsworth: Penguin Books,1983) by J.M. Roberts gives a better idea of the dynamic of the Portuguese seaborne Empire with references under "Portugal" to "trading ships", "interest in Persia","trade with India","in China", "in Japan", "maritime expeditions", and "commercial imperialism".
    Labourers in the field of of Latin American History are resigned to textbooks purporting to be histories of Spain and Portugal in the New World, only to discover that the Portuguese part has about the same ratio to the Spanish as has the visible part of an iceberg to the bulk under water, namely one ninth. How many Portuguese have not been denied the credit due to them by casual erasure of distinctions between Diego and Diogo, Juan and João, Gonzalez and Gonįalves, and Castilianization of Portuguese names?..."

    And he goes on for two more pages. In the end, he says: "The Lusitanian world in motion was to have an ineradicable impact on Europe, Asia, Africa, and America"
    Last edited by Ludicus; December 28, 2008 at 04:47 AM.

  2. #202

    Default Re: Portugal - Faction Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I will not talk about the game.
    But, historically speaking, that question also deeply irritates the historians:

    In the introduction of the the book "Portuguese Empire,1415-1808", A.J. Ruseel-Wood, Prof. of History at Johns Hokins University, says:

    " Portugal is a province of Spain, isnīt it? " The capital of Brazil is Buenos Aires." " They speak Spanish in Brazil" "Very few people speak Portuguese:itīs a Spanish dialect". Such statements testify the ignorance concerning the Portuguese Empire and the Portuguese-speaking world.
    Consultation of the index of a recently published compendious (1536 pages) volume modestly entitled A History of Word Societies (by John P. McKay, Bennet D.Hill, John Buckler,Boston:Houghton Mifflin,1984) reveals only ten references for the span 1415-1975 under "Portugal". The index to the Pelican History of the World (Revised Edition. Harmondsworth: Penguin Books,1983) by J.M. Roberts gives a better idea of the dynamic of the Portuguese seaborne Empire with references under "Portugal" to "trading ships", "interest in Persia","trade with India","in China", "in Japan", "maritime expeditions", and "commercial imperialism".
    Labourers in the field of of Latin American History are resigned to textbooks purporting to be histories of Spain and Portugal in the New World, only to discover that the Portuguese part has about the same ratio to the Spanish as has the visible part of an iceberg to the bulk under water, namely one ninth. How many Portuguese have not been denied the credit due to them by casual erasure of distinctions between Diego and Diogo, Juan and João, Gonzalez and Gonįalves, and Castilianization of Portuguese names?..."

    And he goes on for two more pages. In the end, he says: "The Lusitanian world in motion was to have an ineradicable impact on Europe, Asia, Africa, and America"
    Yes one of the things that pisses me off is when people start saying: "theres already one iberian faction" like if portugal and spain were the same, had the same language and culture. Or even one: "What? Theres no playable italian faction?" Like if there has to be one lol

    What i was saying in the beggining is, even if portugal's gameplay was indeed similar to another faction, how isnt the marathas one similar to the mughals?

    If it wasnt for the video, id say portugal had a 90% chance of being playable, as a german magazine that contained a leaked primitive sketch of the campaign map and other info which is now proving to be correct, stated that portugal would be playable along with the known 11 and USA, though it stated that the USA would only be playable in a mini campaign.
    Thamis replied to the thread where that was posted(it also contained gameplay info like how colonies worked and a lot more) and said that he was surprised to see that that map was printed and leaked, and that most of the info on the thread was true. About the factions he only stated that the marathas name was wrong, it wasnt kingdom of marathas but marathas confederacy.
    Thing is back then people didnt beleive it as they still thought the USA would be playable in the grand campaign, and thought like there would only be 12 factions , portugal would be ruled out.
    Also, months ago a screenshot came out showing portuguese goa and a fleet, which also supported their inclusion in the 12 factions, since why would they focus on that if portugal was a mere unlockable faction?
    All of this evidence may not evidentally scream: portugal is playable from the beggining!, but it offers some advantage on other rivals for the spot such as denmark.

    Then came the bucket of cold water, marathas shown being played in the gc.
    The diplomacy menu shown the marathas among the 12 as the first disk, which is the disk of the faction being currently played as shown in M2:TW and in a next german video where the player opens the diplomacy menu on the road to independence campaign and the first disk shown there is the USA, the players faction.

    While this means disaster for anyone hoping to see portugal as one of the initial 12, there is some good news about being the marathas being played on the video.
    You may ask why? Well its simple, http://shoguntotalwar.yuku.com/topic/36366, this is the thread with the leaked ancient campaign map and with the leaked info about the playable factions. A CA staffmember called jamie ferguson AKA Cn Iulius Flamininus replies the following in the fourth page of that thread:
    As for the discovery of the map. I would say that most of the stuff in that announcement is true.
    We have Marathas and Mughals. Cant remember which atm but one of them I think is playable.
    From that point on as more and more evidence shown the mughals as the chosen indian faction, marathas stopped being discussed as a possible initial playable faction.

    So, all of this evidence presents two possible scenarios:

    -Marathas are playable; Portugal unlockable;

    The fact that they were shown being played plus the diplomacy menu showing 12 disks points that they are playable.

    -Portugal is playable; Marathas unlockable;

    Just because Marathas are unlockable, doesnt mean CA couldnt test them out as shown in previous games(on M2TW, several screens came out showing civilizations that were unlockable being played). Their disk appears as number one in the diplomacy menu, that happens everytime with the player's faction, even if the faction isnt playable at all without modding(like the papal states in M2TW).

    As of now, id say marathas is taking the lead by far, but with all this said, its not gonna be 100% official until CA confirms it on totalwarforums.com in their weekly faction.
    Im not expecting portugal to be playable although id like it, what i would like is to CA to put an end to my misery once and for all, so i can stop thinking what if? Instead they give us no absolute gift on xmas, no demo or another faction confirmation , and, in 1 or 2 more weeks when they actually decide to confirm another faction, i just know theyll confirm one of those 100% sure factions like prussia/austria/poland/mughals and leave us hanging and bleeding till the very end.

  3. #203
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Portugal - Faction Thread.

    Thatīs what I call "living in a state of denial".
    Donīt torture yourself. Definitely,Portugal isnīt a playable faction.
    Last edited by Ludicus; December 28, 2008 at 01:07 PM.

  4. #204
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    Default Re: Portugal - Faction Thread.

    Yes, it does begin to annoy me. But no matter how much we complain I think we need to face reality that CA will do what it wants to. We already know that France, Great Britain, Russia, The Ottoman Empire, United Provinces, Sweden, and Spain are official. That leaves 5 or 6 six more factions depending on how you look at it. I would say six; the U.S. will probably be considered a playable faction when in essence it isn't. My guess on the next five would be Mughal Empire, Maratha Confederacy, Prussia, Polish-Lithuania Commonwealth, and Austria. The reason why there are three eastern factions is obvious, CA did the minimum to not be considered completely Eurocentric and PLC will be included because a large group of native fans will pout if it's not, not to mention there is some incomprehensible love for Winged Hussars...I don't understand why Austria would be official, they weren't even really a country, just a large group of territories ruled by different members of the Habsburg family. Don't get me wrong, they should be in the game just not one of the 13. So I think there is a very slim chance that Portugal will be an official faction but look on the bright side, at least they are unlockable—at least that's what I would think.


  5. #205

    Default Re: Portugal - Faction Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Thatīs what I call "living in a state of denial".
    Donīt torture yourself. Definitely,Portugal isnīt a playable faction.
    to make it worse, CA is taking ages to confirm more factions, and usually confirms factions that are more certain than rain itself.

  6. #206

    Default Re: Portugal - Faction Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    "Portugal is a province of Spain, isnīt it? ... " They speak Spanish in Brazil" "Very few people speak Portuguese:itīs a Spanish dialect".
    this comments I hear often about Portugal or Brazil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    "The capital of Brazil is Buenos Aires."
    But this iīve never heard - only that Rio is the capital of Brazil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Labourers in the field of of Latin American History are resigned to textbooks purporting to be histories of Spain and Portugal in the New World, only to discover that the Portuguese part has about the same ratio to the Spanish as has the visible part of an iceberg to the bulk under water, namely one ninth.
    The most important reason for this is, that the main market for historical (or nearly all) books is the anglophone world.

    And second, because of the many conflicts between Spain and England/USA and the spanish colonization in North America. As world histories are often eurocentric (and on the global stage english dominated) thatīs no wonder.

    In Brazil there were no important civilizations like the Aztecs or Incas and Portugal fought only wars against the Dutch, thatīs why the history there is not very well known and not "exciting" enough --> no englishman involved.

    You should have fought more wars against England, to be an "interesting" country.
    Last edited by Xerrop; December 29, 2008 at 12:16 PM.

  7. #207

    Default Re: Portugal - Faction Thread.

    There were more colonial wars in brazil than the war against the dutch.The french and the portuguese fought a lot in the XVI Century and in the early XVIII Century,and the spanish forces were almost always fighting against the portuguese in the south frontier.The problem is that the anglophone world doesnt hear about this as much as they hear about the spanish battles in america

  8. #208

    Default Re: Portugal - Faction Thread.

    Don't want to go on a rant, but not including Portugal would be a major misstep. The game is called Empire. How many factions in the time period portrayed by the game could actually call themselves an Empire? Well, certainly not twelve, but only a handful. And Portugal was certainly one of them.

  9. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.Sebastian View Post
    There were more colonial wars in brazil than the war against the dutch.The french and the portuguese fought a lot in the XVI Century and in the early XVIII Century,and the spanish forces were almost always fighting against the portuguese in the south frontier.
    Thatīs right, I personally know that - but as I have written, there were no englishmen involved --> means unimportant for the anglophone world.

    They donīt care about Dutch, French or Spanish history as long as it isnīt related to the history of the UK or the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus Spitama View Post
    Don't want to go on a rant, but not including Portugal would be a major misstep. The game is called Empire. How many factions in the time period portrayed by the game could actually call themselves an Empire? Well, certainly not twelve, but only a handful. And Portugal was certainly one of them.
    I think you make the mistake to confuse empires with colonial empires.

    there are two types of empires:
    .) The ones who consist of conquered neighbouring regions (like the Persian Empire, the Franks, China, or in the ETW-time frame: the Ottomans, Austria, Prussia, Poland, Russia, Sweden, Mughal and the Marathas).

    .) And colonial empires (like Carthago, Genua and Venice, or in ETW the UK, Spain, France, Portugal and the Dutch).

    An empire means "only", that this state has a relevant size (in land or population), economical, military and political importance.
    But itīs not necessary to have colonies to be an important empire.
    Last edited by jimkatalanos; December 30, 2008 at 06:09 AM. Reason: double post

  10. #210
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Portugal - Faction Thread.

    Right, Xerrop. Probably he meant to say "Global Empires" (like he said,five or six)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Empire
    Last edited by Ludicus; December 30, 2008 at 07:49 AM.

  11. #211
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    Default Re: Portugal - Faction Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert the Kingmaker View Post
    Well the one thing I think most people are confused about is whether the 12 factions that are chosen are the only "playable" factions in game and the rest are "nonplayable" and cannot be artificially unlocked by modding the descr_strat file. I would think these official playable factions are the factions chosen by CA to receive the most detail and attention from the company. Actually, that is exactly what CA stated about them.

    An "unlockable" faction can be played either by successfully completing a campaign, eliminating the faction or by simply editing the descr_strat file to artificially unlock them. Now the definition of a "nonplayable" faction would be a faction that was not meant to be played at all. These factions were simply included to fulfill a historical purpose. A couple examples are the Timurids and the Native Americans in M2TW. In fact, these cannot be unlocked by the traditional means or by editing the descr_strat. If one were to edit the file, you will be unable to play the factions at all without editing additional files. And even then there would be errors.

    CA hasn't been completely clear on which factions constitute which. Taking into consideration what PC Powerplay said; that there are 36 factions, and what Keiran Brigden said recently on G4; 50 factions, I would make a prediction. I would assume that the 12 factions chosen by CA are the factions available from the beginning of the game--when you start the game for the first time. These 12 make up part of the total 36 factions that are both official and unlockable by traditional means. In short, all factions that are meant to be played. This means there are 24 "unlockable" factions. The rest of the 50, 14, are "nonplayable" factions. This number also doesn't take into consideration the many "nonplayable" rebellion factions.

    That is why I am predicting that Portugal is in fact a "playable" faction by traditional means in TW games; you can either unlock them by successfully completing a grand campaign, eliminating Portugal when playing the grand campaign, or by editing the descr_strat file. Which ever you chose to do. Portugal just will not be "playable" from the start. I personally like unlocking factions by eliminating them one by one. When you think about it, why would CA make Portugal completely "unplayable" as I defined it? Probably the factions that cannot be unlocked by elimination are the many minor tribes throughout the world map.
    This idea of always make only some factions playable from the beggining makes me really angry.
    Why donīt they just put all factions playable since the beggining of the game?
    It could end this discussions of the factions that should be playable.
    Why the y donīt just make playable from the beggining all the 50 factions?

  12. #212

    Default Re: Portugal - Faction Thread.

    So I can explain my point a little better, I do understand that the concept of Empire does not need to be tied down to a global concept, and I would very much like to have the chance to play as one of the central european landlocked powerhouses from the period, but the game, as it is being sold to the public, presents as major innovations and selling points the expansion of the map to include a wider global perspective, as well as the much publicized naval battle scenarios. Now, when it comes to fully exploiting these factors, Portugal is on a very select group of nations that could be considered playable to the most. Besides the British, they are the most credible european force to reckon with in India, and while not the key players in central or north america, they could prove a much more realistic and suitable contender in there than any unforseen and unexplainable landing of Russian, Austrian or Ottoman troops in Cuba or Plymouth Rock.

  13. #213
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Portugal - Faction Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xerrop View Post
    The most important reason for this is, that the main market for historical (or nearly all) books is the anglophone world.
    "The organization of the study and teaching of history in the United States has in the past one hundred years been biased toward the history of the “great powers” of the past two centuries: England, France, Germany, and Russia"
    Norman Fiering, Director of the John Carter Library at Brown University, American Printing History Association 2006 Institutional Award, Founder of the Forum on European Expansion and Global Interaction.

  14. #214

    Default Re: Portugal - Faction Thread.

    So, Portugal is definitely ruled out of the game?

  15. #215

    Default Re: Portugal - Faction Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Portuguese Knight View Post
    So, Portugal is definitely ruled out of the game?


    Maybe Portugal will be lockable after you destroyed it,remember that it had the colony of Goa so my guees will be playable and included in those 30 more or less factions.

  16. #216

    Default Re: Portugal - Faction Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulisse View Post
    Maybe Portugal will be lockable after you destroyed it,remember that it had the colony of Goa so my guees will be playable and included in those 30 more or less factions.
    Goa and a "few" more. Portugal had, what, the 2nd/3rd largest overseas empire? Not to include it in the main factions would be a gross historic inaccuracy.

    But of course, the game doesn't sell that much in Portugal and Brazil...

  17. #217

    Default Re: Portugal - Faction Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Portuguese Knight View Post
    Goa and a "few" more. Portugal had, what, the 2nd/3rd largest overseas empire? Not to include it in the main factions would be a gross historic inaccuracy.
    Not really, there were no 'main' factions in History. The fact is, most of Portugals overseas possesions are not included on the map CA decided on, or it's colonies are single provinces that can only be owned by one faction.

    But of course, the game doesn't sell that much in Portugal and Brazil...
    That may well be, but we do live in a Capitalist society so...
    'When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything. '

    -Emile Cammaerts' book The Laughing Prophets (1937)

    Under the patronage of Nihil. So there.

  18. #218
    Steel of Fury's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Portugal - Faction Thread.

    Portugal should be a playable faction as it had an empire at the start of the game and is one of the most important nations in history, not to mention one that would be challenging and fun to play.

  19. #219

    Default Re: Portugal - Faction Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel of Fury View Post
    Portugal should be a playable faction as it had an empire at the start of the game and is one of the most important nations in history, not to mention one that would be challenging and fun to play.
    It will be playable you just have to unlock it.
    'When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything. '

    -Emile Cammaerts' book The Laughing Prophets (1937)

    Under the patronage of Nihil. So there.

  20. #220

    Default Re: Portugal - Faction Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Portuguese Knight View Post
    Goa and a "few" more. Portugal had, what, the 2nd/3rd largest overseas empire? Not to include it in the main factions would be a gross historic inaccuracy.

    But of course, the game doesn't sell that much in Portugal and Brazil...

    I said that because Portugale in the map game has just portugal and goa and maybe atlantic islands,also Venice will be so hard and funny to play as Portugal,but they have few choices of survive against the other superpower of the 18th.(In Particular Spain is very dangerouse for the portugal).

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