Das Heilige Römische Reich - Suggestions

[Wadler]

Ok thanks for the reply. Well, if you succeed that'll be great and if not I'll just have to put up with it

[beavis]

In your next version of the mod...

I think you should add one of the most powerful German states of the middle ages; the Teutonic Order.

The antagonists of the Ordenstaat, Lithuania should also be included.

I think the Khazars were already eliminated by the Rus by the time this mod starts and should not be in.

[Son of Mao]

But the Khazars are too damn cool and that area of the map could use filling

[beavis]

volga bulgars are a more historically appropriate choice.

but the focus of the mod is the HRE

[aduellist]

Teutonic Order wouldn't really work out. They weren't founded until 1192, didn't become a military order until 1198, and had no presence in Prussia before 1226 (after being expelled from Wallachia in 1225).

Cumans/Pechenegs would work out better than Khazars, IMHO. Same steppe-like culture/military and were a real thorn in the sizes of the Kievans, Byzantines and Hungarians until the advent of the Mongols. Indeed, the invasions/migrations of the Cumans were the reason the Teutonic Order was invited into Wallachia in the first place.

What I'd like to see in the next version(s) is:

- dismounted order knights
- era-based recruitment (no getting longbows/Genoese crossbows/Imperial knights in 1100 )
- an AOR/ZOR system

[Icefrisco]

I understand that some other countries might work out better but we are adding Judaism and its onyl makes sense to add the Khazars who were Jewish. Also we hope to simulate the movement of Jews into eastern Germany and Poland which helped to bolster the economies. Jews hopefully will add some new excitement to the game.

[beavis]

The Khazar Khaganates power was smashed by Sviatoslav in the late 900's. Maybe some minor state existed.

I don't think you need a Jewish faction to have Judaism in the game. In fact the extent of the Khazars conversion to Judaism is controversial.

The Teutonic order would make a great emerging faction, this is a mod based on the HRE, omitting the Ordenstaat would neglect a large part of central european history

http://www.euratlas.com/history_euro...0.html#%20here

[Dimitri_Harkov]

They emergence of the Teutonic Order is not in the timeframe of this version of the mod, which is 1080-1300.

Maybe they'll be in a future late campaign.

Khazar will be in 0.6. For quite a lot of posts on that topic, see the 'The future of HRR' thread.

[Oberhut]

- era-based recruitment (no getting longbows/Genoese crossbows/Imperial knights in 1100 )
- an AOR/ZOR system

I'll strongly suppert that

[Icefrisco]

The Khazar Khaganates power was smashed by Sviatoslav in the late 900's. Maybe some minor state existed.

Thats what historians thought in the 1970's but since then much research has been done to show that the Khazars remained strong after 965 when the Rus' attacked. After that point Khazar merchants and scholars traveled across Europe and the Khazars in general tried to become part of western European society. Most of our primary sources on the Khazars come from after 965. The Khazars were not the military power they once were, but they were able to survive up until ~1230 when the Mongols defeated the last remnants of the Khazar Empire.

The Teutonic order would make a great emerging faction, this is a mod based on the HRE, omitting the Ordenstaat would neglect a large part of central european history

We do not want emerging factions because it would mean one less faction for the player to play as. Our goal is to make the mod fun.

[aduellist]

Khazar will be in 0.6. For quite a lot of posts on that topic, see the 'The future of HRR' thread.

I hope you and Ice didn't misunderstand my post. I wasn't in any way objecting to the inclusion of the Khazars in 0.6 (not that would amount to anything if I did, I'm not doing any of the hard work the HRR team is in the midst of). I agree that they'll be unique, cool and probably very fun to play.

I'm in the midst of doing my own era-based recruiting for my personal use in 0.52. It's based loosely on the PDER eras system (which is in turn based on either TLR, LTC or DLV, I can never remember which). Having done it in other mods (I was a minor contributor to one of the SS eras/AOR mods), I understand the amount of work needed. I also understand that implementing an AOR/ZOR system is even more work. I develop nervous twitches every time I open the models.db.

Anyhow, keep up your great work. I'm really looking forward to the next release.

[Icefrisco]

I hope you and Ice didn't misunderstand my post. I wasn't in any way objecting to the inclusion of the Khazars in 0.6 (not that would amount to anything if I did, I'm not doing any of the hard work the HRR team is in the midst of).

I understand what you were saying. Dont worry, its always good to have concerned fans as you give me valuable feedback and information that can help the mod.

I learned my lesson about taking critcism from the Medieval: Total Realism. I questioned the modders judgement of realism about adding the Volga-Bulgars instead of Genoa and Burgundy and the modders literally freaked out. They got really pissed off at me and then everyone else started questioning how the modders responded. Now the mod is dead thanks to the actions of the modders over 1 year ago. I understand criticism is important and by ignoring HRR it would be in the same cemetery as MTR.

I agree that they'll be unique, cool and probably very fun to play.

Thank you!

I'm in the midst of doing my own era-based recruiting for my personal use in 0.52.

I hope it works. If it works maybe you can help us develop one for .6 or .7

Anyhow, keep up your great work. I'm really looking forward to the next release.

Thank you and please continue to give feedback.

[JesusLizard]

Hi, my first post here.

I have to say i havnt played your mod, but it sounds awesome, so awesome i might buy "kingdoms" just to play it, eventhough i dont have the money.

i would like to make a case for a complete overhaul of the danish faction, or at least its units. The historic inaccuracy is appalling. this might be of interest since relations between denmark and hre probably is pretty important. At least im getting pretty sick of the fantasy units of incredible strength the danes in the vanilla version command.

Here's some info about the danish millitary in the early and high middle ages: Denmark was not yet in a fully grown feudal state, and would not be before around 1250-1300 (an estimate), at least it is well known that the danes did not use feudal armies before that time (and then probably never completely, in the way of the french, as an example).

The Danish military was based on the "leding" infantry (in old danish: "lething") litteraly meaning "war following" or "war campaigning". It was initially based on free farmers and villagers where each man was expected to bear arms still, and probably still took a great deal of honour in their weaponery and skill. However they were not completely dedicated to war, unlike the nobelity.

Denmark was divided into districts called "skipæn" (ship), each af these districts had to have a ship with a fully armed crew ready for war every fourth year, however many of these districts volunteered more than that, since raidings often made the crew rich (recent studies shows that no part of the land was free of this duty due to the "kværsæde", a tax to avoid going to war, as once thought, it was rather a tax paid in any case).

The main way of war was still centered around the longship, which wouldnt change for some time, ships were by far the best way of transport since no roads existed exept for "hærvejen", litteraly: the army road, running down the Jutland Peninsula. The early lething soldiers would have been lightly (if at all) armoured, equipped with a spear and shield (and not that germanic roundshield seen in the vanilla, but a norman style pointed shield, which had been the favored one since the late viking age) and a axe or sword to close combat, around every second person would also wear a bow (this is known because of the laws regarding the lething: "den Skånske ledingslov" = the law of leding of Scania, and: Jyske Lov = Law of Jutland. Both from the begining of 1200). Around 600-800 hafnæ divided the danish lands, each supplying between 41 and 43 soldiers.

Though soldiers like this made up the bulk of the army (untill 1169) a nobel elite was begining to take shape. Local village democracy centered around "tinget" had at least lost some power to the warrior elite, which more and more would be educated in the ways of the franks. It is believed that the first knightish danes was educated in germany and france, however, knights never came to be in denmark, as almost none of these warriors ever took the knightly oath. It is known that there was these knight-like warriors, since a rather large group of these was slaughtered by the turks during the first crusade, having arrived at Constantinople a couple of days after the main force had left it. The danes then decided to enter turkish territory themselves. Danish bishops also owned knightish cavalry.

According to Saxo Grammaticus a lething-reform took place in 1169 (after the conquest of Rugen), reducing the number of hafnæ to 150-200 and setting higher standards of lething equipment. The farmers lething was disbanded in favor of a "herremand" lething. Herremand, old danish: hærræman or hærman, doesnt mean "war man" as easily concluded due to "hær" meaning "war". The meaning is rather "fine(r) man" ("herre" is from the germanic word "hêriro" meaning hounerable, fine or worthy). The word "herremand" has come to be identic with nobelity in modern danish, but in this case it probably is meant as a wealthy farmer or minor nobelity. These would have been heavily armed and armoured, with shield, spear, sword and a mail hauberk. The cog was also a more used ship around this time, being roomier and capable of having "towers" on it thus better suited for battle.

Instead of Århus being the capital, it would make more sense to make it Viborg, and not a city but a castle. Perhaps divide the jutland peninsula in to regions a southern and a northeren with Flensborg as the southeren region town. And/or making Zealand a region with either Roskilde or Copenhagen as its town (if Roskilde that should be the capital, if copenhagen it should only be a village). However with increased regions both the AI or the economy should be changed, it wold make sence to make Denmark rather passive, the "conquest" of norway and sweden wouldnt take place before the Kalmar Union in the 1397, the main interest of war of the danes was in the baltic sea and its pagans in (south) east and later on conflicts with the Hanseatic League. Sweden and Norway used a similar military system, however, i do not know that in detail.

If had the skills i would make these changes myself to your mod, but i dont. Instead i can only hope that someone will change the danes.

Many of these subjects can be found on wikipedia, which gives a basic but sometimes nearing a false, at least, simplefied information.

[Dimitri_Harkov]

Wow - thanks!

At least some of your wishes have become true already: Denmark consists of the following provinces in HRR:

Sjaelland (Kobenhavn)
Skane (Lund)
Jutland (Arhus) - capital

Adding a second region (Flensborg) in Jutland sounds good. I'll do that.

Denmark IS quite passive in HRR (usually). Most of the time it attacks their south-eastern neighbours (The Obotrites) and then remains rather passive.

Do you think you could turn your nice essay into a unit roster for us?

Just tell me what each unit should look like, using an existing model as reference, what stats it should have (again it would be best to compare it to an existing unit) and a date when it first appears (or becomes obsolete). If you do it, keep it simple - better fewer units with a clear purpose than too much.

Thanks for you feedback!

Cheers, D.

[TWoxy]

Informative post JesusLizard, thanks! +rep

[Dimitri_Harkov]

Oh - Yeah of course: +rep from me too!

[Icefrisco]

@JesusLizard

I would rep you if I could but I lost the ability(apparantly calling a biggot an idiot is an infraction).

Also, welcome to the site and your ideas are very good!

[nicolaswille]

ok, so while doing the Ui for some factions i found at 2 things:
1- swabia and saxony have the same looks as the normal HRR
2- ... some factions are mising there shields, for example burgundy, ill try changing the color of there shields so the Ui can match.

BTW, awesome post Jesuslizard... lol funny name

[Dimitri_Harkov]

Hey nicolaswille: We are in the middle of doing the shields already. Yes, Swabia & Saxony have the same uniforms (in vanilla hre color), but they have different shields/banners.

Burgundy's lower level troop's shields are yellow on purpose. I like the yellow / dark red mix of colors on Burgundian soldiers.

[JesusLizard]

Hmmm, I might have been a bit hasty in my last post, here some errors corrected:

Both the "the law of leding of Scania" and "the law of jutland" was made after the lething-reform in 1169. The law indicating the equipment of the earlier lething is actually a norwigian law, however there would probaly not have been a difference of any real significance.

I seem to have mixed the words "hafnæ" and "skipæn". skipæn is the only one i should have used, "hafnæ" was a subdistrict which only was supposed to supply one armed warrior, a small village typically.

"Hêriro" means more hounerable, finer or worthier man. According to my etymological dictionary.


A recomended unit rooster (with some guessings, cause the infomation is very limited):

Early on ( - 1150/1200) :
Lething Spearmen:
The main early infantry, somewhat like the standard spearmen. Light armour, perhaps first upgrade from the beginning. Norman style shield.
Better attack than standard levy and millitia spearmen.

Lething Axemen
One-handed axe and a norman style shield. Light armour. To indicate that every man had to equip himself with a lower range weapon besides his spear, i.e. an axe og sword. Swords were however still expensive for the avarage man.

Lething Archers
Archers capable of fighting hand-to-hand, as they simply was standard lething infantry carrying huntingbows with war-arrows. Norman style shield on the back. One-handed axe as hand-to-hand weapon.

Huskarle
These are the troops who will evolve in to nobility, and is part of the warriorelite. Still mostly fighting on foot. Mail hauberk, helmet, norman style shield on the back, two-handed axe, sword in belt. Maybe you can tweak the colors of the housecarls in the "battle of hastings"- historical battle. They were essentially the same. The english housecarl-system, at that time, was, as far as i remember, a product of Canute the great's reforms.

Mounted Huskarle
Much the same as mailed knights, perhaps a little poorer armour (maybe no full face helmets or full body mail, leaving the arms and legs free), charge bonus and attack. Indicating the influence from the south, carrying a lance, sword and norman shield.

Longships, fast ships, cheap, weak in battles.


High middle age 1150/1200-1300/1350
Hærræmæn Lething Infantry (both a sword and spear carrying type, again to indicate that each would carry both)
Better trained and equipped than the earlier. Helmet, mail, norman shield, sword/spear. More expensive to indicate the fever numbers.

Hirdhmæn
Men part of the hirdh (royal household). Generals bodyguard. Identical to other southeren royal bodyguards.

Riddere
The danish knightish type cavalry, largely identical to feudal knights. With a little less morale, and perhaps a little bit more expensive to indicate that they are not "true" knights, and that this type of warfare still isnt as important nor normal as in the more southeren regions.

Knægte = dismounted riddere, the name ridder just indicates that the man is riding

Crossbow Millitia - as normal.

Cog


Late (1300 - )
Lething Cavalry (this name is probably ahistoric, but i dont know to call it, maybe conscript cavalry or something like that)
This was the last stage before the lething system was completely transformed into a tax system, supplying the noble armies. It is disputed how long it was used, to which extent, and wether succesfull or not. Instead of requiring ships and crews, different districts had to supply the kings army with non-noble cavalry, they would have had good armour and equipment, and some training, but these would not have been full time soldiers.

Late Riddere
Echoing the late german knights, maybe with a little lower morale. Trained the same way, however not taken the knightly oath.

Late Knægte = dismounted late riddere

Hirdhmæn - Generals bodyguard.

Crossbow millitia

some sort og generic european late infantry, halberd militia or something.

In the late middle ages denmark was to high degree influenced by the north germans and would have had very similar armies.

Holk

All ages:
Landeværn (Land defence) Conscripts
If the nation was threatned by an invading force every free man and slave had to fight if they could carry arms. Unlike the lething soldiers these men were not fighters but "trælle" (thralls/slaves) or villagers only supporting a "hafnæ" or anybody else who for some reason wasnt part of the lething.
Either simply Peasent-like infantry, or equipped with a spear or a knife. No armour. Later on, when the lething had lost its power, these would have been the average farmer conscripted.

I dont know what to do with the early royal bodyguard, as it evolved from huskarle on foot to cavalry.