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Thread: Crazy theme (Did Heavy Cavalry Ever Dismount?)

  1. #1
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    Icon10 Crazy theme (Did Heavy Cavalry Ever Dismount?)

    I was wandering did cuirassers ever fight dismounted ?
    i know draggons did.
    Last edited by jo the greek; September 11, 2007 at 05:05 AM.

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    LuciusCato's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: CRAZY THEME (DID HEAVY CAVALRY EVER DISMOUNT?)

    Unless caught in camp i doubt it, the speed and mobility of the horse was the cavalrys main advantage. There Firearms: pistols and carbines are less powerfull and accurate than infantry longarms so in a fire fight they would lose anyway




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    Default Re: CRAZY THEME (DID HEAVY CAVALRY EVER DISMOUNT?)

    Quote Originally Posted by LuciusCato View Post
    Unless caught in camp i doubt it, the speed and mobility of the horse was the cavalrys main advantage. There Firearms: pistols and carbines are less powerfull and accurate than infantry longarms so in a fire fight they would lose anyway
    In sharp episode in italy sharp faced some guys wearing cuirass
    do yu remeber it ??but i think those guys were foot soldiers

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    LuciusCato's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: CRAZY THEME (DID HEAVY CAVALRY EVER DISMOUNT?)

    They were French Heavy Cavalry. But as they were fighting in a castle horses would be pointless Sharpes Revenge it was. In a full battle situation though it would be a waste to dismount and fight on foot. The guys in Sharpe were just retired soldiers hired by Major Duco




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    jackwei's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: CRAZY THEME (DID HEAVY CAVALRY EVER DISMOUNT?)

    Yeah that did happen if their horses were shutdown or cross fragile surface like thin ice for an example.

    Although i remember when Napoleon arrived to take command of the army of italy the cavalry riders ate their horses, espceially, before he arrived the army was in a poor state.

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    Default Re: CRAZY THEME (DID HEAVY CAVALRY EVER DISMOUNT?)

    Their cuirass could be usefull assaulting fortications..

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    Darsh's Avatar Maréchal de l'Empire
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    Default Re: CRAZY THEME (DID HEAVY CAVALRY EVER DISMOUNT?)

    "Cuirassiers were mounted cavalry soldiers equipped with armour and firearms, first appearing in late 15th-century Europe. They were the successors of the medieval armoured knights. The term is derived from cuirass, the breastplate armour which they wore.

    The first cuirassiers did not appear very different from the medieval knights; they wore full-body armour, and the only items of equipment which differentiated them from knights were leather riding boots and the use of wheel-lock pistols, in addition to lances and swords.

    Cuirassiers wore armour long after it had become superfluous in the face of the ever-increasing use of firearms. However, the extent of the armour worn was gradually decreased so that, by the end of the 17th century, it was comprised only of a breastplate (the cuirass or plastron), the backplate (carapace), and the helmet.

    The first recorded cuirassiers were formed as 100-strong regiments of Austrian kyrissers recruited from Croatia in 1484 to serve the future Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian. They fought the Swedes and their allies in 1632 in Lützen and killed the Swedish king Gustavus Adolphus. The French introduced their own cuirassiers in 1666. By 1705, the Holy Roman Emperor's personal forces in Austria included twenty cuirassier regiments. Imperial Russia formed its own cuirassier regiments in 1732, including a Leib Guards regiment. The Russian cuirassier units took part in the Russo-Turkish War.

    Cuirassiers played a prominent role in the armies of Frederick the Great of Prussia and of Napoleon I of France. The latter increased the number of French cuirassier regiments to fourteen by the end of his reign.

    Cuirassiers were generally the senior branch of the mounted arm, retaining their status as heavy cavalry - "Big men on big horses". While their value as a heavy striking force in Napoleon's campaigns ensured the continued use of a number of cuirassier regiments in the French and Prussian armies during the nineteenth century, the expense and inflexibility of this arm limited their existence in other countries to Guard units.


    British Cuirassiers on ceremonial duty in WhitehallIn 1914 there were still cuirassiers in the German army (ten regiments including the Gardes du Corps and the Garde-Kurassiers); the French (twelve regiments) and the Russian (three regiments, all of the Imperial Guard). The German and Russian cuirassiers had, by the end of the nineteenth century, come to retain their breastplates only as part of their peacetime parade dress, but the French regiments wore the cuirass (with a cloth cover) and plumed helmet on active service during the first weeks of World War I. The three Household Cavalry regiments of the British Army (1st and 2nd Life Guards and Royal Horse Guards) had adopted cuirasses after the Napoleonic Wars as part of their full dress, but never had occasion to wear this armour in battle.

    The retention of this magnificent but obsolete armour for active service by the French Army in 1914 appears to have reflected the prestige of this branch of the cavalry, dating back through the Franco-Prussian War to the campaigns of Napoleon. Attempts were made prior to the outbreak of war to have the cuirass restricted to parade dress but on mobilisation the only concessions made were to wear a cover of brown or blue cloth over the steel and brass of the cuirass itself to make the wearer less visible. The cuirass ceased to be worn by most French regiments within a few weeks of the outbreak of war, though it was not formally withdrawn until October 1915.

    The Russian and German cuirassiers ceased to exist with the overthrow of the Imperial regimes in both countries (February 1917 and November 1918 respectively). The French cuirassiers continued in existence after World War I but with their numbers reduced to the six regiments which had been most decorated during the war. Ironically five of these had achieved their distinctions serving as "cuirassiers a' pied" or dismounted cavalry in the trenches. The surviving cuirassier regiments were amongst the first mounted cavalry in the French Army to be mechanised during the 1930s. Two cuirassier regiments still form part of the French Army - the 1er-11e Régiment de Cuirassiers based at Carpiagne and the 6e-12e Régiment de Cuirassiers based at Olivet.

    A few present-day mounted cavalry units continue to use cuirasses as part of their parade equipment on formal occasions. Most however have not retained the actual title of "cuirassiers", if indeed they bore it in the first place. These are the Life Guards and Blues and Royals of the British Household Cavalry; the Coraceros de la Guardia Real of the Spanish Royal Guard (created in 1875); and the Italian Corazzieri, the honour guard of the President of the Italian Republic."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuirassier

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    Default Re: CRAZY THEME (DID HEAVY CAVALRY EVER DISMOUNT?)

    Then comes the question who was the superior cavalry, between the medieval Templars,Teutonic or Hospitaller knights up against the Napoleonic Cavalry with just swords and armour?

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    Default Re: CRAZY THEME (DID HEAVY CAVALRY EVER DISMOUNT?)

    I think 18th century swords are better made to penetrate armor, and of course the armor would be better too. In an 1on1 I think the 18th knight would win out. But dismounted medieval knights still rule the field against peasant levies and other knights, while dismounted cuirassiers might not fare so well against all those muskets and rifles.

    Basically, M2TW should have had the option, not so much with E:TW.

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    Trax's Avatar It's a conspiracy!
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    Default Re: CRAZY THEME (DID HEAVY CAVALRY EVER DISMOUNT?)

    It happened but it certainly wasn't common.

    In 1805 at Elchingen the Austrian cuirassiers dismounted and attacked a village defended by French infantry. Despite musketry the heavies were able to penetrate it.
    In 1813 near Gelnhausen the French heavy cavalry and chasseurs dismounted and in skirmish order successfully attacked enemy in the vineyards.
    In 1813 at Kulm part of the Russian Guard Cavalry Regiment (Chevaliers Garde) dismounted, grabbed their firearms and fought for few hours supporting the foot skirmishers.
    I only quoted the parts about cuirassiers follow the link to find out about the rest.

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    Darsh's Avatar Maréchal de l'Empire
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    Default Re: CRAZY THEME (DID HEAVY CAVALRY EVER DISMOUNT?)

    This was very rare because Cuirassiers was a heavy cavalery and his principal advantage was, like the Knights in the medieval times, the impact during the charge.

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    Ordinarius
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    Default Re: CRAZY THEME (DID HEAVY CAVALRY EVER DISMOUNT?)

    Quote Originally Posted by jackwei View Post
    Then comes the question who was the superior cavalry, between the medieval Templars,Teutonic or Hospitaller knights up against the Napoleonic Cavalry with just swords and armour?
    Entirely moot point. Cavalry was meant for different things in each era. You simply can't compare them.

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    Fenix_120's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: CRAZY THEME (DID HEAVY CAVALRY EVER DISMOUNT?)

    Quote Originally Posted by LuciusCato View Post
    They were French Heavy Cavalry. But as they were fighting in a castle horses would be pointless Sharpes Revenge it was. In a full battle situation though it would be a waste to dismount and fight on foot. The guys in Sharpe were just retired soldiers hired by Major Duco

    They were not "French"...Someone has been playing to much AOE3.

    Cuirassers were used by France, Britain, Italy, Russia, Denmark, Sweden, Poland-Lithuania, Austria-Hungary and all the former HRE.


    Heavy Lancers (who existed first, and also wore a steel Cuirass) were used by Spain, Portugal and Sicily.


    Armor did not go away after the Medieval period, it was in the twentieth century that armor stopped being worn into combat, and then twenty years after soldiers quit wearing steel plate the flak jacket was invented, and armor suddenly made a come back.


    Now modern soldiers are wearing a steel breast plate again reinforced by Kevlar.
    Last edited by Fenix_120; September 10, 2007 at 06:14 PM.

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    Default Re: CRAZY THEME (DID HEAVY CAVALRY EVER DISMOUNT?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenix_120 View Post
    They were not "French"...Someone has been playing to much AOE3.

    Cuirassers were used by France, Britain, Italy, Russia, Denmark, Sweden, Poland-Lithuania, Austria-Hungary and all the former HRE.


    Heavy Lancers (also in steel Cuirass) were used by Spain, Portugal and Sicily.
    I think he means French Cavalry in the Sharpe episode...

    And I'm reasonably sure more than just those 3 countries used lancers...

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    Trax's Avatar It's a conspiracy!
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    Default Re: CRAZY THEME (DID HEAVY CAVALRY EVER DISMOUNT?)

    Britain
    Only after Napoleonic Wars.

    Heavy Lancers (who existed first, and also wore a steel Cuirass) were used by Spain, Portugal and Sicily.
    A Polish Winged Hussar is also a "heavy lancer" par excellence

  16. #16

    Default Re: CRAZY THEME (DID HEAVY CAVALRY EVER DISMOUNT?)

    Also, might I add, at the beginning of the 18th century, Dragoons weren't classified as cavalry, but rather as quite simply, dragoons, or mounted infantry. In the orders of battle, commanders would give numbers for infantry, cavalry, dragoons and artillery. Dragoons' original purpose was to use their horses to quickly take them to advantageous, defensible positions, and there dismount and fight as infantry. Of course, if it came to melee work, they would mount up and charge, as that would be vastly more effective. But, they normally found it better to dismount and stand behind a wall and fire away, to retreat when the enemey threatened to force them out at bayonet.

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    Darsh's Avatar Maréchal de l'Empire
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    Default Re: CRAZY THEME (DID HEAVY CAVALRY EVER DISMOUNT?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenix_120 View Post
    They were not "French"...Someone has been playing to much AOE3.
    Yes but "Cuirassiers played a prominent role in the armies of Frederick the Great of Prussia and of Napoleon I of France."
    Other nations except France had Cuirassiers in their guard, France during Napoleonic area had many regiment of Cuirassiers and they were the shock troops of the French army.

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    Default Re: Crazy theme (Did Heavy Cavalry Ever Dismount?)

    Quote Originally Posted by jo the greek View Post
    I was wandering did cuirassers ever fight dismounted ?
    i know draggons did.
    Any cavalryman could dismount and fight on foot if need be. We must recall that the horse could be killed and the man would (if he was able to move from under the falling horse) have to be able to defend himself once on foot. However, it was very rare for most cav to dismount and fight as infantrymen. The days of the dragoon’s original purpose was no longer in effect by the later part of the 18th century. The cav charge en mass was the most important factor for the heavier cav units. The carbine or pistol were very much defensive weapons, the blade and the charge were the weapons of attack. However, that is not to say that these men could not fire or fight on foot, just that it was not their primary duty. On scouting parties, while foraging, van or rear guard actions and so froth, they were very much able to perform as impromptu foot soldiers, but in a pitched battle there was no need for this.

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    Trax's Avatar It's a conspiracy!
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    Default Re: Crazy theme (Did Heavy Cavalry Ever Dismount?)

    The days of the dragoon’s original purpose was no longer in effect by the later part of the 18th century.
    But I have the impression that although it was rare for cavalry to dismount the dragoons were still the most likely type of cavalry to do so. Most of the examples on the page I linked above involved dragoons.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Crazy theme (Did Heavy Cavalry Ever Dismount?)

    I was not implying that they did not dismount or that they were the most likely or otherwise to do so, only that their orginal purpose in the later part of ETW’s timeline is not necessary. In their orginal roles, they were used as mounted infantry, but in the Napoleonic Era for instance, they were lgihter versions of heavy cavalry. I say lighter versions because they (broadly speaking) had slightly smaller mounts and were able at times to perform the duties of light cav.

    The only regiment I can think of in this later period that fought in the old dragoon style was not even mounted on horses, but camels!

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