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Thread: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

  1. #1

    Icon13 Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    As you all know since Empires is mostly in the gunpowder age with few factions still using swords and bows, melee combat might not be seen as much. I will admit out of all forms of warefare this has interested me the least, probably because I don't know much about it I still don't. I always looked at it as lines of men blindley shooting at eachother but now I relise there is more to it than that. The only things Im hoping for this game is that the ground battles don't lack that epic feel that previous total war games have, with thousands of soldiers clashing in a battle. I just hope the gameplay doesn't become some-what boring to watch if it involves you choosing when to aim your weapons with no melee combat what so ever. What I really hope for is every single ranged unit in the game who use muskets also having a melee ability with all of the melee stats being different for each ranged unit. I hope they give the player an option to just charge at an enemy unit with bayonets fixed if they don't want to use there ranged ability. If there is huge crowds of melee fights like in previous total war games I just hope they are some-what long like in Rome:Total war instead of a pack of soldiers rushing in to stab any enemy they see with the bayonet. I wanna see soldier's struggling to survive actually pitting there guns against each other sort of like swords in an effort not to get stabbed. Another good feature would be for some melee units to actually have a small sword along with there musket like a sort of speciality for that unit in melee combat. Such as the unit having a sword holder (I don't know what it's called) on there belt. Im not speaking of a large sword, just a large dagger or a short sword, something very light.

    If features such as this arn't in Empires I fear the ground combat could become sort of boring lacking that great feel Medieval 2 and Rome had. I just hope they pull threw with it, the ground combat will be the deciding factor in how good this game will be, other than that Im sure it will be great. I just hope they don't all focus on this new naval feature which is great and fail to include ground combat features such as the one I just explained.

    Non-cavalry units better have some defence against cavalry even when there charged at and there formation is broken they can at least fight, such as a strong non-cavalry unit fighting against a weak cavalry unit, they should still stand a chance even if the enemy is on horses in melee combat.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    I agree i just can't imagine how C.A will implent the gun tooting feature and expect land battles to be epic. If they don't fall through with this im sure their gonna lose alot of fans
    How great is he who gains the world but loses their soul? :hmmm:

  3. #3

    Default Re: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    Well, if you describe the battles of this era as just pointing your men at who to shoot at and standing there watching them shoot... then you might as well describe the battles of M2 as you just pointing your men at who to attack and just standing there watching them fight. The fact is though, that these battles are (or should be) won and lost through melee combat... the ranged combat is there to weaken the opponent before you charge and rout him, but if you do it too soon, then you will get tore-up on the charge. The rest of it, is positioning your men such as to get an advantage.

    If its hard for you to imagine this as being epic, then you certainly have not DL'ed and played Napoleonic: TW 1 or 2.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    No, I havn't played Napoleonic:Total War Im busy finishing my first Julli campaign and I just started a Germanic campaign in BI. Maybe I should download it just to get an idea of what it will be like. The only think I hope for in Empires is an option for every musket unit to charge your enemy using melee, it will make battles very exiting with units having 2 attack options that are almost balanced. At the same time making the melee battles with musket units long like in Rome:Total war not just running and poking. They manage to pull that off and this will probably be the best total war game yet.

  5. #5
    Lord William's Avatar Duke of Nottingham
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    Default Re: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    yes Drak is right if you charge into men that are fire you wil lose your army.... if you want to get a taste of what ETW will be like NTW2 is a great mod to prepare you for ETW

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  6. #6
    jarnomiedema's Avatar Artifex ad Infinitum
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    Default Re: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    Also, some of the screenshots released in various game magazines around the world have shown us brutal melee combat with soldiers shouting at eachother and clashing their muskets against eachother. It's fair to say that melee will still be a big part of the game.. It all depends upon how often you intend to shoot if you want drawn out battles (which is something I am looking forward to)..

  7. #7
    cudakite's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    Yes, try Napoleonic 2 Total War. But make sure you play ONLINE to get a real feel for the tactics and combat of this era. Just playing single player custom battles will be a poor representation because the AI thinks it has an army full of roman archers and does not handle itself well at all. Feel free to click on the Lordz modding collective banner in my sig if you're interested.

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  8. #8
    Holger Danske's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    Ground battles? You know the aeroplane wasn't used in war until WWI, right?... It's called Landbased battles, or simply land battles... As for your opinion I can only disagree as you can't swim with your army across the Atlantic, and walking to India will take forever compared to sailing.. Thus Naval power is VERY important if you want to be a Empire.. just look at what the Romans did.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    Battles of this era were arguably the most epic in history. Even using the M2 engine firefights are more spectacular than traditional melee battles.

    To call warfare at this time as simple as guys lining up and shooting each other is no different than saying previous eras were simply guys charging and slashing/banging each other.

  10. #10
    Lias_solano's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    It seems to me that your going to be making the mistake of fighting a battle with 1800's technology and roman era tactics.And your going to get slaughterd if you do.(This mistake was made by many real generals so dont feel to bad)
    If you have your men charging in an attemp to get into melee combat quickly they will be under concentrated musket volleys and close range cannon ordananc(grape shot/shrapnel) and they will rout and be run down by cavalry.
    Formations play a lot bigger part of battles of these eras than previous games.A line of infantry is vulnerable to cavalry but good against a column of infantry.Infantry in square formation will defeat cavalry but is a sitting duck for artillery.An infantry column is good for smashing through weakend lines of infantry.There are other examples as well,and someone who knows more about the era will be able to tell you more.
    Total war is evolving,and we generals are going to have to adapt to new tactics in order to be victorious.

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  11. #11

    Default Re: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    Hmm, and formations are so incredibly exciting im actually wetting myself. Seriously, how interesting can it be shooting at each other for half an hour until one or the other runs out of shots, or the cavalry can over power each other and hit the cannon/ infantry. I really hope its going to quick and easy to replace troops, because half of an army will be dead before you can even get up close.

  12. #12
    Lias_solano's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    I think your missing the point,The point with the formations is that they are adding more stratergies for players to implement during the battle.You say that it wont be interesting watching two lines of infantry shooting at each other,and i agree with you.But what you need to do is keep the battle fluid.move your infantry up in either line or column to get near enough for your volleys to do enough damage,whilst this is happening you will be using you artillery to inflict concentrated casualties to create a weak point in the enemy line.moving horse artillery into positions to get a good angle on enemy infantry.Using your cavalry to threaten the flanks and try to get the enemy to form square.Charging your infanrty with bayonets fixed into enemy lines.Taking command of buildings on the battlefield and holding them against counter attacks.What im trying to say is that the people who think the battle will be just lines of infantry shooting at each other havent really thought about all the possabilites available to them.

    Lias
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  13. #13
    jarnomiedema's Avatar Artifex ad Infinitum
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    Default Re: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    I can really recommend people who don't know (or don't like) much about the strategy of this age to take a look at the 'Short movies to get you in an Empire mood' thread. The threads about documentaries on Waterloo and Napoleon are also good choices for some more info. Also, on the website of the Lordz Gaming Studio there's an interesting video on the features of artillery..

    There's a lot more to this era than just walking up, pointing your gun and shooting. It's actually a lot more complicated than that. But Lias_solano has already pointed that out more eloquently than I ever could..

  14. #14
    Lias_solano's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    Ive been called a lot of things in my life,but thats the first time ive been called eloquent.Thanks jarnomiedema


    Lias
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    A think I am hoping for is the end of the one unit stacks. The A.I. has to come at you with its full, concentrated force. If that army is defeated it should be hard to raise a new one.

    Another thing I would like to see are full fledged campaign warfare, with armies able to tactically retreat before a stronger enemy in search of better ground. Unfortunetly I do not know if this is really possible as I might put a bit to much strain on computers and developers.


    Actually something I just thought about, what about skirmishers. It was well established that armies would usually deploy a few regiments of light troops to be loosely harrass the enemy before a fight.

  16. #16
    cudakite's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    The warfare of this Era was nothing more than lines of men standing still in front of each other blasting away until one side is all dead. I sure we will hear this misconception many more times until the game comes out.

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  17. #17
    Lord William's Avatar Duke of Nottingham
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    Default Re: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    Quote Originally Posted by Lias_solano View Post
    I think your missing the point,The point with the formations is that they are adding more stratergies for players to implement during the battle.You say that it wont be interesting watching two lines of infantry shooting at each other,and i agree with you.But what you need to do is keep the battle fluid.move your infantry up in either line or column to get near enough for your volleys to do enough damage,whilst this is happening you will be using you artillery to inflict concentrated casualties to create a weak point in the enemy line.moving horse artillery into positions to get a good angle on enemy infantry.Using your cavalry to threaten the flanks and try to get the enemy to form square.Charging your infanrty with bayonets fixed into enemy lines.Taking command of buildings on the battlefield and holding them against counter attacks.What im trying to say is that the people who think the battle will be just lines of infantry shooting at each other havent really thought about all the possabilites available to them.

    Lias
    Believe me my friend, you wont have time to look at your troops fighting you will be to busy trying to run an entire army and believe me it is not easy im a NTW2 vet and i still have problems sometimes

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  18. #18
    Woad-Warrier's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    Quote Originally Posted by scottishranger View Post
    A think I am hoping for is the end of the one unit stacks. The A.I. has to come at you with its full, concentrated force. If that army is defeated it should be hard to raise a new one.
    Thats a good idea actually :hm:

    I hope we won't see one unit stacks wandering about my land.

    Although I doubt it..

  19. #19
    Condottiere SOG's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    To get a very clear idea of combat at he height of the Enlightenment Era, may I recommend the book "Frederick the Great; A Military Life". This book I am sure will put everyone's fears to rest. This book has every battle the king was in and many of them quite bloody. Other's are night skirmishes before the great battle the next day or battles with Pandours and Grenzers. A wealth of info on the period, you'll find every aspect of war in it. Melee, charges, grenades, artillery, lines of battle, great cavalry charges. Cavalry decimated by volley fire. Lines of grenadiers assaulting redoubts while getting shot to pieces by grapehot and cannister and musket fire. These same grenadiers take the guns but lose some 70 percent in casualties. It is compared to the first day of the Somme in WWI. The effects of grapeshot and cannister, with musket fire, were very much the same as several nests of machineguns. Lead everywhere. I am sure there are many CA'ers reading up on this period and having had done so. Watch as to what Lusted tells you. They're on it.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Ground battles will be the deciding factor for this games success

    Last edited by Cadmium77; September 11, 2007 at 12:27 AM.

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