Democracy and Oligarchy

[Dannath]

Can you tell us what the +'s or -'s will be for having a democracy or oligarchy in a city? Will there be anything different available to you if you choose one?

[era1987]

in oligarchy only the noble, rich and powerfull will rule, but in democracy the peasent, Plebej or citizen can be elected to govern.... probaply there will be a riot in long run.

[Sparta1233]

I personnaly like Democracy because it makes the people more powerful than the leader.

[icydawgfish]

Yeah, but that's not always a good thing.

[Sparta1233]

Ya but makes them happy, then you stab them in the back and form a monarchy.

[seleukosART]

I dont like democracy because it doesnt work but appears to work. Also it costs much money (if you take a look at Switzerland where thousands of politicians are paid for talking only)

[Sparabara]

Yeah sometimes democracy -sadly-"appears to work" but it still remains the best political system available.. But..what about dictatorship ? Magna Grecia's city-states -and some aegean isles- had always been masters and specialists in the art of establishing tyrannical regimes..

[icydawgfish]

Well the problem with dictatorships is that one man has too much power. He may have good intentions, but most grow power hungry and tyrannical over time.

[Snevets]

In case this was unclear: There is tyranny, democracy, and oligarchy officially announced in Hegemonia. There are a few other ones just to surprise you.

[genko]

those words make me feel so much better makes me feel like the mod wont fade away with the loss of rob also what type of government will sparta have will it have some special agoge one

[icydawgfish]

A quick question, what's an oligarchy?

[Dr. Acculla]

It's where a state is run by a group of wealthy individuals for example a council of nobles or merchants.

[Argyri]

In case this was unclear: There is tyranny, democracy, and oligarchy officially announced in Hegemonia. There are a few other ones just to surprise you.

Snevets, in these dark days your comment appears like a ray of light...

[GiorgioIII]

ολιγαρχια-oligarchy is when a few rule. The nobility of a city most probably. Comes from the greek word ligos = few

[Snevets]

I realize that most people on this forum are used to spirit of rob since he was the moderator- there is no denying that he was an important part of the mod. His biggest contribution to the mod in the last year however has been just that- logistics and moderation. As far as the work is concerned loosing Rob doesn't do much damage. Doing it without him will be harder though, both as a trusted team member and a friend to us all. To be honest with all of you if every withdrawal was as graceful as Rob's we would have been finished a year ago.

There will however, always be people working on this project. Keep in mind though that this is a people's mod- it's not something you can just buy, you have to get involved if you want it. Even some writing help would be good. At the moment though we're in a lull until after Christmas, so if you don't hear back from us with questions don't take it too personally.

On a side note since I'm tired of keeping secrets from you- the government types I've had in mind are: Monarchy, Colony, Tribal Federation, and Satrapy. To be clear, governments aren't indicative of the faction government, but the way you rule a territory. Athens for example was (mostly) a democracy with the occasional tyrannical inclination. The way it ruled its territories was however, in my opinion, largely tyrannical. It's not an idealisitic system like the religions in BI, but an administrative one, as the word government would suggest.

To my knowledge it is only possible to have three convertable religion types. The others will be for the faction the city starts in the control of. Monarchies would be mostly used for cities like Halikarnassos, and the Etruscan league. Persia's capital and possibly some other cities would be satrapies. Thrace would start with tribal federations (no definate name for those yet), possibly Illyria too in its non-capital cities, and most of the northern rebel cities. Colonies would be used for factions starting with semi-independent colonies, especially Rhodes and Carthage. The advantage of all of these over the normal governments would be stability- as was the case, the governments in Heg are always in a state of flux owing to the influence of characters, as per the reality in classical Greece. Conversions from these types will be on conquest and scripted. All that is still in progress, so ideas are welcome.

[Argyri]

Thank you, Snevets.

[Etepete]

I realize youre already far along on this, and I do like the basic principle. But I think it might be better to view the different government styles as ideals rather than actual administrative systems. Sure, Athens was an imperialistic bully - but its populace subscribed to democratic rule. It is actually a scary and interesting feature of most greek democracies that while the polis in itself might be ruled "democratically" (you know, not counting women, foreigners and slaves), it would have several dependent cities that would be ruled by the key city. So in effect, the demos of the key polis would become an oligarchic elite for the colonies and dependent cities.

I would argue that in such a system the key city WOULD be democratic: the people see themselves as democrats, and they behave in a "democratci" (by ancient standards fashions). Obviously, in foreign policy realpolitik rules: but to be honest foreign policy is just what R:TW is about. We dont need a system to reflect foreign policy: thats the actual content of the game.

In the classic era the old aristocratic states underwent revolutions and changes that led to democratic as well as autocratic regimes. I think that the main purpose of a religion based system of government models should be to reflect these revolutions and changes and the conflicts that they gave rise to.

I'd let the Greek City states have Aristocratic, Autocratic, Democratic and Monarchic regimes - and let Athens be Democratic. And Athens would then bandy the "concept" of democracy on its subject states, all the while acting utterly contrary to those ideal on the high politics stage: as evidenced by the speech to the Megarans.

Sorry for a very long post (also the first one on your forum). I think your mod looks brilliant, and youre defintely on the right track with the government system. Just thought Id give you my perspective. Ive been dying for a classic hellenic mod, and I will be following yours with great interest

Best Regards

Peter

[removeduser_3482674582374]

Maybe you should consider Aristotle's book of "Politics" where he claims there are 3 good politic systems and their 3 corrupted versions, I ll try to write them in contrary so you get the general idea:

Aristocracy, where the "aristoi" or "perfect" govern, its opposite being oligarchy, again the few rule but they do it for their own interest and not that of their fellow citizens.

Monarchy, where obviously the King rules with respect to laws etc etc.
The opposite is Tyranny, one man rules with no respect to the law and oppresses the people.

Finally, we have "Politeia" which derives from the word "Politis" which means citizen, it's the "good" democracy....Then we have "Ohlokratia" which derives from the word "ohlos" which means masses of people, the bad version of democracy where the crowds rule with no respect to anything...A lot like the politic system of Athens after a time point especially during and after the Peloponessian War...

Well that's all given very laconically though hope you make sense, for more details send a pm or an email...KEEP THE GOOD WORK!!!
I SALUTE YOU!!!

With Honor,

Polemidas.

[Etepete]

A nod to Politeia would indeed be elegant. But it would be difficult to distinguish bad from good forms of government. And if you read Tucydides you get the impression that the time period is characterized by a political move away from the traditional aristocratic and monarchic governments towards democracy OR autocracy. Maybe Platon could be included as a final form of Goverment: the Timocracy (i.e. his rather facist ideal state with three tiers of citizens). Mind you, that is going from history to fiction to a great extent.

[removeduser_3482674582374]

Yeah i know that including Aristotle's and Plato's works in the game would be far from historically accurate BUT in contrary to Plato who is trying to create an ideal state, Aristotle is trying to critisize and make some distinctions between the politic systems...After all don't forget that Plato's politic system never came into life while many of the systems Aristotle critisizes and describe were existing at the time...Last but not least in my opinion Aristotle offered many more than Plato to the Philosophic movement, if it can be characterised in such a way...

With Honor,

Polemidas.

ps. glad i am finally having serious and interesting conversations in these forums than arguing with some people about the descendants of Aliens....