Faction Thread: Poland-Lithuania

[justme]

discuss the Polish-Lithuanian union in this thread

[justme]

I'm just copying Yggdrasil's original unit list here


I don't know whether Poland and Lithuania will be separate or a single faction. In any case, I lumped their units together...

Polish-Lithuanian units, 1490-1555 period


Cavalry:

1. Szlachta - gendarmes or gothic knights model, rather inefectual and expensive
2. Strzelcy - mounted crossbowen
3. Racowie, Racowie Strzelcy – Hussars & Hussar archers
4. Lithuanian boyars
5. Lithuanian retainers
6. Tatarzy - vassal Tatars from the extensive Lithuanian teritorry, light horse archers
7. Husaria - Armoured hussars
8. Kozacy (Polish light cavalry), Level 1 no armour, Level 2 mail shirts and misurka helmets, spear as primary, saber secondary weapon
9. Mounted arquebusiers
10. Lancers - looking like level 2 Demi lancers unit


Infantry:

early period units:
1. Archers
2. Armoured spearman
3. Halberdiers
4. Crossbowmen
5. Pavise Crossbowmen
6. Lithuanian archers
7. Hangunners
8. Levy archers
9. Urban militia (some kind of polearm unit, eg. halberdiers)

late period units:
10. Arquebusiers (dressed in western style clothes)
11. Piechota (eastern style arquebusiers)
12. Haiduks - mercenary unit
13. Pikinierzy - late pikemen




Artillery:
All cannon models

Units available as mercenaries (for custom battles and during campaign available for recruitment in the starting provinces, not a definite list but some suggestions ):

1. Landesknechts units
2. Hussars
3. Hussars archers
4. Pikemen
5. Arquebusiers
6. Schwarze reiters
7. Bohemian arquebusiers
8. Bohemian pikemen
9. Halberdiers
10. Wallachian calarisi

[Chevalier IX]

So then,have we decided if the Hussars will be winged or no???I myself am leaning to yes...if for no other reason fan service

[Lared]

I'm from Poland, Polish-Lithuanian union ("Unia lubelska","Union of Lublin") was in 1569. Poland and Lithuania united in "Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodów" (Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth). Unia Lubelska was real union. In Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodów polish side was called "Korona królestwa polskiego", and Lithuanian side was called "Wielkie Księstwo Litewskie". It had common king, common currency, common foregin policy and common law. Office, army and treasury stayed separate. That's all of history.

Polish hussars were always winged and dangerous. I think it was the best polish and european cavalry in these ages. Sorry for all language mistakes, i'm not good in english

and there's one more mistake; eng. "Hajduks" = polish "Hajducy"

"lisowczycy" was a light polish cavalry good for hit&rin attacks. i think it's good idea to add them to polish cavalry

and piechota - its infantary in polish and i think it's bad idea to call them like that

[anaztazioch]

@ Lared

Polish hussars were always winged and dangerous. I think it was the best polish and european cavalry in these ages.

No They werent. Stefan Batory, was he who reformed military and formed a "serbian" hussars, to be heavier cavalry. Their main weapon was "asian" composite bow (taken from mongols, tatars, huns and turks), secondary wepaon was lance. They were also equipped with "turkish" sabre/scmitar. Thei armor was changed from "turkish" chain mail, to "Kirys" ( http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafika:Batory_zbroja.jpg ) and "turkish" sabre was replaced with hussar scmitar, whitch was based on Hungarian sabre.
In later peroid (17th centuary) pair of pistols were attached to saddle instead for bow.

As foe wings. Well, feathers were attacked to end of lance, on shields, horse legs and helmets. The fitctional version is a hussar with 2 wings on the back of his breast plate, where in history, Polish Hussars used 1 wing on saddle and attached after mounting horse. Another thing is that those wings were used more for fairs and parades rather than for battle.
In much later age they used scale mail.

Wilhelm Beauplan (french engeiner) was mentioning feathers on lances, but nothing about wings.

[anaztazioch]

"Szlachta" is "noblility"

As i dislike this name, becouse in MTW there is chivalary knights, when Chevalier is the lowest nobility status that represends a knight, and knight in French is Chevalier... In Poland "knight" is "rycerz" and a noble who is a knight bears "kawaler" noblity status (read prytty much as Chevalier).

Racowie is MTW II Hussars, and they were both melee light cavlary and ranged light cavlary (wore a very light and long lance). Thanks to MTW II engine, they should be split to Racowie and Racowie archers.

4. Lithuanian boyars
5. Lithuanian retainers

Poland and Lithuania NEVER had united army. Even after unification with Jagiełło, Wiltord had his own seperate army, whitch did not use Polish units, or technology. Same for Jagiałło army, there were no Lithuanians. Under Tannenberg (god damn, its battle under Grunwald, but the foreign noobs prefer giving it "german" city name that polish troops past by BEFORE they met Teutonic army under Grunwald) Polish army lead by king Władysław Jagiełło was composed of mostly light-to-none armored infantry and light cavlary(Serbian hussars) and heavy cavalry (none had full plate armor, and half plates were very rare. Even King had only chain mail and plate breast plate). Lithuanian light cavlary and "boyars" joined up as LITHUANIANS not Polish-Lithuanian army, under the lead of Witold.
Im fully against giving "lithuanian" units to Poland-Lithuania.

8. Kozacy (Polish light cavalry)

They were Polish peasants, criminals or worngly accused civils, that migrated to "Ukraine". These land became part of Poland in 1569 and riots were often. Kozaks were more an Ukrainian and Russian formation rather than Polish. Kozactwo was mostly a "job" rather than status or "unit" name.

2. Armoured spearman

Polish infantry was very poorly armoured. Chainmail was best amongst its armor (all nobles had enough money to have a horse, so why walk ?)

10. Lancers

Pzancerni more a like. A Heaviest and best armoured profetional and standing army, whitch has its roots down to Mieszko I. "full" Chainmail and half plate was its armor. Lance and sword its wepaons. Horse was also armored IIRC.

6. Lithuanian archers

No Lithuanian archers. Poland had poor archers (thats why Hussars are renown for charge not archery skills like mongolian cavlary), so thy were weak and not often used in army.

9. Urban militia

Poland used light (if armored at all) pikemans armed with sabre for infantry vs infantry combat.
Sabre in reinesance and late peroid was as "prestigious" and "honorary" weapons as katana in Japan in same peroid.
In late ages, Plish hussars withs cale mails preferred charging with sabres not lances (Luckilly that was a suprice for Ottomans :p ).

10. Arquebusiers (dressed in western style clothes)
11. Piechota (eastern style arquebusiers)

Poland did not used Arquebusiers. Poland used Muskets, whith some differant loading thing put into army by Stefan Batory. Dont know what effect it had, but i belive it increased rate of fire.

In later ages 17th centuary, Poland was using Janissaries muskets (janczarka in Poland) and were a "copy" of Ottoman Janissaries (both in clothing, red dyed clothes, feathers on hat, hats, weapons, sabre and melee combat training, but unlike Janissaries Polish late gunpowder infantry did NOT had origins in slavary "ghulam/mamluk were basis of janissary")

13. Pikinierzy

Pikinier = Pikeman
Barelly armoured if armoured at all man armed with two handned long pikes and sabres.

12. Haiduks - mercenary unit

Its Hajduk in Polish, Hungarian and Turkish (thats where the name was born). These man are usually non-moslems (pegans even), who are "lesser" criminals aimed to be "Robin Hoods". Even if they did not gave money too poor, they opposed Turks (Ottomans) and were seen more as heroes rathern than criminals.
In 16th and 17th centuary, Hajduk was a "private" Polish infantry made on basis of Hungarian infantry by Stefan Batory.

[Szarlej]

I disagree.

1. [QUOTE][/Racowie is MTW II Hussars, and they were both melee light cavlary and ranged light cavlary (wore a very light and long lance). Thanks to MTW II engine, they should be split to Racowie and Racowie archers]

Hussars primary weapon was always lance. It was commonly called "drzewo" (tree). They were famous of using from the beginning and were skilled in fighting with lance - look at the picture of battle of Obertyn (1531). Those light cavalryman are early hussars.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...awa_strona.jpg
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafika...VI_century.PNG

Their secondary weapon was sabre, the most popular in XVI century was polish-hungarian sabre called "batorówka" (turkish type sabres were used rarely).
http://www.platnerstwo.pl/batorowka.html

Hussars in the early period weren't armoured (some of them used chainmails and helmets). Later they became more armoured and in second half of XVI century they began to be polish heavy cavalry (instead of lancers in western full plate armors who disappeared from polish army due to advance of gunwpowder weapon, dominance of sabre which supplanted sword-rapier and battles in steppe areas with fast and light tatar, russian and turkish cavalry).
They wore chainmails, plated mails or cuirass during in XVI century and partial hussar plate armor from XVII to XVIII century.
http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72382

Hussars used shields - the most popular were "winged" (hungarian type) shields (look at the painting of battle of Oberyn) but also round metal shields and kalkan (turkish type shields) were used.

Bow was the supplementary weapon but not because of hussars shoot badly. I have never heard about Racowie archers. In Polish army there was light cavalry armed with eastern type bows and sabres ("strzelcy" in XVI cent., "lisowczycy" and other in XVII c.).

[QUOTE][/No Lithuanian archers. Poland had poor archers (thats why Hussars are renown for charge not archery skills like mongolian cavlary), so thy were weak and not often used in army.]

It's not true that Poles were bad archers - bow (turkish or tatar type) was very popular in polish army, tradition and culture. It was used by hussars, pancerni, lisowczycy, jazda wołoska, tatarska - majority of polsh cavalry from XV to XVIII century.
http://www.wawel.net/images/malar/brandt/htm/51.htm

I think that it would be the best to make 3 levels of hussars - due to changes in their equipment and role on the battlefield.

2. [QUOTE][/Same for Jagiałło army, there were no Lithuanians. Under Tannenberg (god damn, its battle under Grunwald, but the foreign noobs prefer giving it "german" city name that polish troops past by BEFORE they met Teutonic army under Grunwald) Polish army lead by king Władysław Jagiełło was composed of mostly light-to-none armored infantry and light cavlary(Serbian hussars) and heavy cavalry (none had full plate armor, and half plates were very rare. Even King had only chain mail and plate breast plate).]

I don't know anything about hussars fighting under Grunwald. First hussars came to Poland after the death of Matthias Corvinus of Hungary (1490). Where did you find information about hussars (racowie) under Grunwald??? Besides Polish kinghts were similary armoured to Teutonic knights.

3. [QUOTE][/Im fully against giving "lithuanian" units to Poland-Lithuania.]

I disagree. Poland and Lithuania had separated armies but units in both armies were in general the same (hussars, pancerni-cossacks-petyhorcy, tatars, similar light cavalry and infantry). Besides their armies took part in battles together as one army of one contry - Polish-Lithuania Commonwealth (Rzeczpospolita). Another fact is that Lithuanian nobles had Polish names and surenames and often spoke Polish better than Lithuanian language.

4. [QUOTE][/
8. Kozacy (Polish light cavalry)

They were Polish peasants, criminals or worngly accused civils, that migrated to "Ukraine". These land became part of Poland in 1569 and riots were often. Kozaks were more an Ukrainian and Russian formation rather than Polish. Kozactwo was mostly a "job" rather than status or "unit" name.
]

Well. You are wrong. Polish cossack cavalry is somethnig totally different from Ukrainian cossacks you mentioned.
Here is about Ukrainian cossacks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporozhian_Cossacks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_Cossacks (in game there would be late infantry - registered cossacks recruited only in Ukraine armed with muskets and sabres)

And here is about Polish cossacks ("kozacy", "jazda kozacka" in Polish) cavalry (called later "pancerni" in the second half of XVII century; in Lithuania called "petyhorcy"): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towarzysz_pancerny
http://www.wawel.net/images/malar/brandt/htm/30.htm

This kind of unit was part od polish army from XVI to XVIII century (in the mid XVII they were the majority of Commonwealth forces). They were rather medium than light cavalry - they used chainmails/plated mails (wore sometimes wolf or leopard furs on armors, similary to hussars), aventail (helmet/fur hat), spear, bow (or pistols in later period), shield (especially turkish kalkan type) which cossack wear on the back often, horseman's pick, sometimes lasso and always sabre. It was multipurpose unit, mostly used against tatars on the steppes. Their primary weapon could be spear and secondary sabre.

5. [QUOTE][/10. Lancers
Pzancerni more a like. A Heaviest and best armoured profetional and standing army, whitch has its roots down to Mieszko I. "full" Chainmail and half plate was its armor. Lance and sword its wepaons. Horse was also armored IIRC.
]

Another misunderstunding I suppose. Lancers were the heaviest Polish cavalry from late XV to the mid XVI century (similary equipped to western Europe lancers). You can see them in the center of this picture: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafika...awa_strona.jpg

6.

[/
10. Arquebusiers (dressed in western style clothes)
11. Piechota (eastern style arquebusiers)

Poland did not used Arquebusiers. Poland used Muskets, whith some differant loading thing put into army by Stefan Batory. Dont know what effect it had, but i belive it increased rate of fire.]

That is not true. Arquebuses were used in Polish army in XVI century (and early XVII - look at "Rolka Sztokholmska" painting - haiduks are marching with them). Later (second half of XVI cent.) polish infantry was armed with "rusznica" (kind of musket) and in XVII cent. muskets similar to other European armies.

7. Polish infantry from the second half of XVI (reforms of king Stephen Bathory) to XVII cent. in polish-hungarian type is called haiduks so I think this is a good name for later period infantry.

8.

[As foe wings. Well, feathers were attacked to end of lance, on shields, horse legs and helmets. The fitctional version is a hussar with 2 wings on the back of his breast plate, where in history, Polish Hussars used 1 wing on saddle and attached after mounting horse. Another thing is that those wings were used more for fairs and parades rather than for battle.
In much later age they used scale mail.
]

Historics and re-enactors still argue in this case. In all probability wings were used in battles to make a psychological effect among the enemies - simply scare them. And it is more probably that wings (it is not proven that one wing only) were tagged to hussars saddles, not to back of their breast plates. Fact of using wings in battle is acceptable in my opinion because wings were used by other cavalry - Tatars and Turks ("deli" scouts).

Greetings.

[anaztazioch]

I disagree. Poland and Lithuania had separated armies but units in both armies were in general the same (hussars, pancerni-cossacks-petyhorcy, tatars, similar light cavalry and infantry). Besides their armies took part in battles together as one army of one contry - Polish-Lithuania Commonwealth (Rzeczpospolita). Another fact is that Lithuanian nobles had Polish names and surenames and often spoke Polish better than Lithuanian language

Mercenary roster yes, but not a castle roster. Also i somehow dont see Lithuanian nobility recruitable in Polish settlement. But if Poland and Lithuania are to be one faction - unit roser should be merged.


The cossacks name is mostly regognized to be Ukrainian/Russian formation. To these guys i was refering. Pancerni were present, from begingin of Poland till... Partition ? Theyr arms and armor was changed over the time.

Another misunderstunding I suppose. Lancers were the heaviest Polish cavalry from late XV to the mid XVI century (similary equipped to western Europe lancers). You can see them in the center of this picture

Nope, Pancerni as they were called, were the cavalry Poland used under Cedynia. You could call them also Drużyna, or more known as Drużyna Chrobrego. Anyway, if we talk about panzerni, who we talk about ? Medieval heavy cavalry, reinesance/baroque cavalry, tank infantry ? You can say that Hussars were used form Batory's time to Partitions. Actually Hussars in Polish roster were used in XIV as mercs, adn than they settled in. They evoled from light-nearelly not armored at all cav, to heavy, to all round cav, changing weapons depending on enemy they face.


As for wings, you said practicly the same thing i did.
Exept that they didnt used scale, it was lemmar.

I don't know anything about hussars fighting under Grunwald. First hussars came to Poland after the death of Matthias Corvinus of Hungary (1490). Where did you find information about hussars (racowie) under Grunwald??? Besides Polish kinghts were similary armoured to Teutonic knights.

Serbian/Hungarian mercenaries. They settled in Poland later and than they were in a roster.

Hussars primary weapon was always lance. It was commonly called "drzewo" (tree). They were famous of using from the beginning and were skilled in fighting with lance - look at the picture of battle of Obertyn (1531). Those light cavalryman are early hussars

Poland needed a strong unit againt infantry and cavalry from west, and mongol/tatar cavs from west. They used lance vs European armies and bows against Tatars.

[druzhina345]

A usful site for organization, soldiers, armour, weapons and costumes is The Renaissance Polish Army by George Gush.
Or mirror site: Renaissance Polish Army

druzhina345
sites of wargaming interest

[Siffite]

Come on, historical accuracy is great and all, but it would still be cool to just give the hussars some wings. Besides, you weren't there 600 years ago, so maybe they did have the wings at some point, who knows? (History buffs are going to crucify me now...)

[MatekFX]

I get Hussars model from this mod, this one:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And I try copy it to Stainless Steel but it end like this

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Unit model is fine but texture of helm, lance and wings is missing. What I do wrong ?