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Thread: War of the World: 1938

  1. #1
    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    Default War of the World: 1938

    The following is an attempt at Alternative Timeline written by myself, OTZ, torment and deathdoom56. It was originally posted on another website but we decided recently with OTZ to give it another shot, that is, if you are interested.

    Since this is a collective work in progress anyone can contribute by PMing me or OTZ so we can edit it in...


    So here is the first part:
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    September 1 1938. Moscow.


    -Lavrenti, we **** this and heads will roll. Our heads. Vladimir Molotov stopped his circular pacing and looked out of the window at the dim lights of the Kutuzofki prospect. The balcony door was open in the summer breeze, cooling the sober room.

    Beria stood at the same spot 2 years ago, after the successful intervention that saved most of the junior and senior officers of the Soviet army. Beria; who would have guessed that these rat’s eyes and shiny scalp figure had more brains then the whole politburo? The thought of Yezof's and Yagoda's sudden demise served as a permanent and painful reminder of the peril enshrined in the pompous title of People's Commissar for Internal Affairs of Narodny Komissariat Vnutrennikh De or Head of the NKVD. And that witless worm Merkulov always watching behind his back. Well, in time...

    But that was then. On his desk he could see the final draft of the announcement that comrade Stalin would transmit in less then 6 hours: “Due to the increased aggression in our borders by elements directly supported by the capitalist Polish government, the Soviet Union desiring peace, and having exhausted…” They looked at each other and they both knew: failure was not an option. Josef Vissarionovitch would repay their support for the Stavka in blood.

    Commander Zhukov rose from his armchair. Let these eggheads deal with the ramifications, and the whining of the Europeans. Britain and France would stay put as long as Germany was in the middle. And Germany was not ready.Lammersdorf, the NKVD infiltrator in Speer’s ministry had informed him that the MK3 prototype was still facing technical problems, and could be in no way compared to the T-34a. The Soviet machine was ready.

    -Gentlemen, we should not keep comrade Stalin waiting…


    In the Polish borders 2.000.000 men awake as 4.000 tanks are heating up their engines. The artillery barrage by 6.000 field guns and assorted artillery will not be long now…WWII is about to begin.



    -----------------------------------------------------

    September 1st, 1938, Berlin



    - A hollow echo follows, as Ribbentrop runs towards the Führer's office in the Reichstag. The guards look stunned as he ignores them and runs past, without even returning the 'Heil Hitler' salute. Also, he seems remarkably bleak today.
    Hitler looks up as Ribbentrop storms in. After a hasty salute, he starts spitting words like a machine gun. "Calm down" Hitler said "now, slowly tell me what is going on". Ribbentrop takes a deep breath and replies: "Mein Führer, the Soviet Union has invaded Poland. Motives still unclear. Polish army crushed. Estimates lie between 1-2 million men". Hitler turned bleak and started thinking out loud. "So the bolshevik jews have finally made their move...?" He sank into a deep concentration, and after a few minutes of sitting still, he calmly stated: "Germany will not let this happen. In his arrogance, Stalin seems to have thought that he could take on the German Reich. The Sudetenland will have to wait, the war for Lebensraum has begun!" He went back into his concentration again. After a few minutes he said again: "Germany obviously can't and should not fight this war alone. Call Mussolini, Daladier and Chamberlain. Arrange a meeting with them, preferably within the borders of the Reich. Hmm, Munich would be good." As usual Hitler finished his rant with a note to the past: "The war between the West and the East has begun. We were able to halt the hordes of Gengis Kahn, let's see if we can halt the march of the bolshevik jews..."
    ----------------------

    September 1st, 1938, Polish border


    Think for a moment what silence is. Then multiply this by a million, ten millions, a hundred million times until it becomes deafening. The artillery barrage started at 07:00 exactly across 200 miles of Polish border. The gun and self propelled artillery was at some instances separated by a distance of less than 10 metres for long stretches of the border. The Polish border guard hastily reinforced over the last week could offer only token resistance to the Soviet onslaught. Most Soviet casualties on the day came from friendly fire, due to the less than perfect coordination, between the infantry and the forward observers. But the Polish troops soon discovered that the sloped front armour of the T-34a was not to be taken lightly. The original speed of the advance surprised even the STAVKA, and staffers started fearing a Polish trap. Colonel Yeremenko leading the 2nd tanks corps later said that the feeling was “…like being immobile in a sea of grass while the planet was moving at astounding speed under our tanks.”
    According to the Zhukov plan operation “Shield” (propaganda was dictating that a defensive term should be used) was a three pronged advance in the polish heartland.
    The main thrust in the north was toeards Bialystok and Brest-Llitovsk with Warsaw as the ultimate goal, and Lwov in the south to secure the industrial areas. At the same time two light tank armies would rush northwest to secure the east Prussian and Baltic borders.
    The only challenging engagement in these first days was a clash between a Polish cavalry regiment, near the borders of the Pripet marshes, which initially surprised the regimental headquarters, and was repelled with severe losses with the intervention of the Soviet air force and elements of the 3d Cossack Division. This was the last cavalry battle in a European theatre. From now on the armoured Cossacks and their western counterparts would dominate the battlefield.



    September 5th 1938 Munich,

    Hitler's eyes twinkled, as Chamberlain bend over to sign his autograph on the paper that would save Europe from destruction. They have agreed to call it, the Munich Treaty. Chamberlain and Daladier were reluctant at first to agree with the German demands, but after Hitler applied heavy pressure on both of them, they gave in. Mussolini of course wasnt a problem. Chamberlain stretched his back, and the four leaders looked upon the piece of paper which was to ensure the peace of Europe. The following had been stated:
    - an immediate non-agression pact between the four states.
    - A military alliance, which would be put into effect after one (or more) of the members had gotten into war with the Soviet Union.
    - immediate German occupation of western Poland to 'ensure' their safety.
    - military acces through German territory for all members.
    - military acces through Checkoslovakia, to make a more effective defensive line.


    Though the treaty covered many more things, these were by far the most important. As the treaty was ratified, the 'Pact of Four', as the newly formed alliance had named itself, started to mobilize itself. Poland protested against the German occupation, and threatened with violence, but after immense political pressure by France and the UK, it had no choice but to agree. 750.000 German soldiers moved deep into Polish territory, and managed to take hold of Warsaw just before the red armies closed in. Poland ceized to exist.
    Hitler started looking for more allies. He decided to stop sending aid to Franco, for the good of his own little war. The Netherlands and Belgium refused to join the Pact, and declared themselves neutral. Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria, sensing the threat, declared that they would support the Pact, if the SU would make an aggressive move against any of them. Yugoslavia and Greece both declared themselves neutral, as did Portugal.



    (to be continued)
    Last edited by Garbarsardar; September 04, 2007 at 01:03 PM.

  2. #2
    jimkatalanos's Avatar 浪人
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    Default Re: War of the World: 1938

    Nice, very nice.
    +rep for you.
    Ερωτηθεὶς τι ποτ' αυτώ περιγέγονεν εκ φιλοσοφίας, έφη, «Το ανεπιτάκτως ποιείν ά τινες διά τον από των νόμων φόβον ποιούσιν.


    Under the professional guidance of TWC's Zone expert Garbarsardar
    Patron of Noble Savage, Dimitri_Harkov, MasterOfThessus, The Fuzz, aja5191, Furin, neoptolemos, AnthoniusII, Legio, agisilaos, Romanos IV, Taiji, Leo, Jom, Jarlaxe






    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The universe is change; our life is what our thoughts make it.


    The soul becomes dyed with the color of its thoughts.


    If you desire to be good, begin by believing that you are wicked.


    We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.


    οὕτως ἀταλαίπωρος τοῖς πολλοῖς ἡ ζήτησις τῆς ἀληθείας, καὶ ἐπὶ τὰ ἑτοῖμα μᾶλλον τρέπονται.


    Questions are not necessarily there to be answered, but possibly there to inspire thinking.


    Nullius addictus iurare in verba magistri, - quo me cumque rapit tempestas, deferor hospes.


    If mind is common to us, then also the reason, whereby we are reasoning beings, is common. If this be so, then also the reason which enjoins what is to be done or left undone is common. If this be so, law also is common; if this be so, we are citizens; if this be so, we are partakers in one constitution; if this be so, the Universe is a kind of commonwealth.


    Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.


    There is no chaos in the world, only complexity.
    Knowledge of the complex is wisdom.
    From wisdom of the world comes wisdom of the self.
    Mastery of the self is mastery of the world. Loss of the self is the source of suffering.
    Suffering is a choice, and we can refuse it.
    It is in our power to create the world, or destroy it.


    Homo homini lupus est. Homo sacra res homini.


    When deeds speak, words are nothing.


    Human history is a litany of blood, shed over different ideals of rulership and afterlife


    Sol lucet omnibus.


    You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.


    Neither should a ship rely on one small anchor, nor should life rest on a single hope.


    The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.


    Ο Νούς νοεί τον εαυτόν του ως κράτιστος και η νόησή του είναι της νοήσεως νόησις.


    'Nothing is true, everything is permitted.' is merely an observation of the nature of reality. To say that nothing is true, is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say that everything is permitted, is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic.

  3. #3

    Default Re: War of the World: 1938

    Actually Hitlers greatest lament as he sat in his bunker and finaly resting place, whilst the red army swarmed through Berlin and took the Reichstag, was that he had not started the war in 1938 rather than 1939.

    Intersting post tho. rep+!!!
    Know that you shall die like whores and the cries of your writhings shall rise to please their lord, so before the sword, side with me in the slaughter....

  4. #4
    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    Default Re: War of the World: 1938

    Edited with second segment. Please rep the other authors too; the first segment was mine but from then on I forget who did what...

    More segments will be added and update notices will be posted.


    As to Hitler's intentions in the real Timeline there is quite a lot of speculation (with hindsight). The level of preparedness of German industry denotes that probably he never contemplated a major war or at least not before '42.

  5. #5
    No, that isn't a banana
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    Default Re: War of the World: 1938

    I'll be authoring the tale of the German soldiers, once that gets added...I'm really looking forward to ressurecting this story - as long as there's interest of course! Thanks for bringing it back to life Garb!

  6. #6

    Default Re: War of the World: 1938

    This is old stuff. I honestly can't remember when I wrote that piece. Still, if you guys need me, I'm in.

  7. #7
    Kara Kolyo's Avatar Mikhail
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    Default Re: War of the World: 1938

    It's quite nice, but several points on the map - Italy didn't invade Albania till the next year, Bulgaria got southern Dobrudja in 1940 Offcource this points are rellevant if you're starting the alternative history from september 1 1938, otherwise quite good. Some Victor Suvorov stuff could be quite helpfull for your task. I'mean just 4000 tanks? USSR had like 20 000 not to mention the planes with poded rockets and the new artilery pieces introduced in 1938...


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  8. #8
    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    Default Re: War of the World: 1938

    First post updated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torment View Post
    This is old stuff. I honestly can't remember when I wrote that piece. Still, if you guys need me, I'm in.
    You are essential to the story if you are in the mood for it...In the next 48 hours I will have posted all the segments and you can take it from there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Kolyo View Post
    It's quite nice, but several points on the map - Italy didn't invade Albania till the next year, Bulgaria got southern Dobrudja in 1940 Offcource this points are rellevant if you're starting the alternative history from september 1 1938, otherwise quite good. Some Victor Suvorov stuff could be quite helpfull for your task. I'mean just 4000 tanks? USSR had like 20 000 not to mention the planes with poded rockets and the new artilery pieces introduced in 1938...
    You are right about the map. When we did it we just wanted to give a general impression. We'll try more...

    The Soviet Union had indeed more armoured vehicles than this but I did not want to introduce an overkill since Stalin is still ambivalent about Germany. More details in the following chapters...

    Thanks...

  9. #9
    jimkatalanos's Avatar 浪人
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    Default Re: War of the World: 1938

    OK, this is getting more and more interesting with the every update.
    Ερωτηθεὶς τι ποτ' αυτώ περιγέγονεν εκ φιλοσοφίας, έφη, «Το ανεπιτάκτως ποιείν ά τινες διά τον από των νόμων φόβον ποιούσιν.


    Under the professional guidance of TWC's Zone expert Garbarsardar
    Patron of Noble Savage, Dimitri_Harkov, MasterOfThessus, The Fuzz, aja5191, Furin, neoptolemos, AnthoniusII, Legio, agisilaos, Romanos IV, Taiji, Leo, Jom, Jarlaxe






    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The universe is change; our life is what our thoughts make it.


    The soul becomes dyed with the color of its thoughts.


    If you desire to be good, begin by believing that you are wicked.


    We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.


    οὕτως ἀταλαίπωρος τοῖς πολλοῖς ἡ ζήτησις τῆς ἀληθείας, καὶ ἐπὶ τὰ ἑτοῖμα μᾶλλον τρέπονται.


    Questions are not necessarily there to be answered, but possibly there to inspire thinking.


    Nullius addictus iurare in verba magistri, - quo me cumque rapit tempestas, deferor hospes.


    If mind is common to us, then also the reason, whereby we are reasoning beings, is common. If this be so, then also the reason which enjoins what is to be done or left undone is common. If this be so, law also is common; if this be so, we are citizens; if this be so, we are partakers in one constitution; if this be so, the Universe is a kind of commonwealth.


    Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.


    There is no chaos in the world, only complexity.
    Knowledge of the complex is wisdom.
    From wisdom of the world comes wisdom of the self.
    Mastery of the self is mastery of the world. Loss of the self is the source of suffering.
    Suffering is a choice, and we can refuse it.
    It is in our power to create the world, or destroy it.


    Homo homini lupus est. Homo sacra res homini.


    When deeds speak, words are nothing.


    Human history is a litany of blood, shed over different ideals of rulership and afterlife


    Sol lucet omnibus.


    You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.


    Neither should a ship rely on one small anchor, nor should life rest on a single hope.


    The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.


    Ο Νούς νοεί τον εαυτόν του ως κράτιστος και η νόησή του είναι της νοήσεως νόησις.


    'Nothing is true, everything is permitted.' is merely an observation of the nature of reality. To say that nothing is true, is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say that everything is permitted, is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic.

  10. #10

    Default Re: War of the World: 1938

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar View Post
    First post updated.



    You are essential to the story if you are in the mood for it...In the next 48 hours I will have posted all the segments and you can take it from there.
    Sure thing, but I would like to know what you'd like me to write. I don't want to get in the way of anyone else, or write things I'm not supposed to write. Last time was fun, but it was a bit uncoordinated. So please, just PM me what you have in mind regarding my role in all of this. You don't need to get into detail, but a general idea of what direction you wish to take would be appreciated.

  11. #11
    Hans Kloss's Avatar J-23
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    Default Re: War of the World: 1938

    Lammersdorf, the NKVD infiltrator in Speer’s ministry had informed him that the MK3 prototype was still facing technical problems, and could be in no way compared to the T-34a
    Minor thing but prototype of T-34 was not tested until July 1939 but even without that machine Soviet armoured forces of late 1938 were very strong indeed: 4 Tank Corpses and 28 Independent Tank Brigades

  12. #12

    Default Re: War of the World: 1938

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar View Post
    The following is an attempt at Alternative Timeline written by myself, OTZ, torment and deathdoom56. It was originally posted on another website but we decided recently with OTZ to give it another shot, that is, if you are interested.
    Was the other website, by any chance, alternatehistory.com?

    Makes me want to post some of my own alternate timelines...


  13. #13
    No, that isn't a banana
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    Default Re: War of the World: 1938

    Nope, it was at ana...TWC's ugly-half-naked-and-looking-for-a-date sister site.

  14. #14

    Default Re: War of the World: 1938

    Quote Originally Posted by OTZ View Post
    Nope, it was at ana...TWC's ugly-half-naked-and-looking-for-a-date sister site.


    Actually, I might post my own timeline (with map) on the forum. Vestigia Vetustatis or The Arts?


  15. #15
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: War of the World: 1938

    Sorry for long inactive in VV... Kingdom gives me too much headache and now I finally decide to abandon this game.

    Anyway, a Soviet Union invasion at 1938... Interesting, yet under what motive?? Also, it was a big gamble for Stalin too, especially the West was in deep distrust toward him than Hitler. In fact, one of the reasons why Britain and France tolerated Hitler so long was because they wanted Germany to be an anti-communist country.

    The all event depended on Germany. If they could hold USSR long enough, Britain and France would definately joined the campaign againsted USSR. Spain, Italy and Balkan countries might join too. In the end, Russian Civil War in 1921 might replay again, except this time the West would not allow the Communists to be remained.

    Anyway, good article!

  16. #16
    cegorach's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: War of the World: 1938

    How the hell the Soviets managed to suprise Poland ?


    They obviously made some moves before taking the Baltics after all - that would be enough to trigger a mobilisation after all. Not to mention the extensive spy network Poland had in the Soviet Union.


    What with that coordination - Soviets didn't have enough radiostations to manage this - only Wehrmacht was capable to do so.

    Now - most ridiculous - Soviet tanks moving so quickly through EASTERN POLAND - how ?
    IN 1939 the Red Army lost only due to mechanical breakdowns over 440 tanks out there...

    Personally I doubt they would manage to reach Bialystok and Lwów/Lviv before they run out of initial impetus.

    And what about Romania ? Poland had anti-Soviet defensive alliance with them/

    Besides is it based on the single idea that Soviet Union prepares ahead of time with much more modern equipment and army structure it had even in real world 1940 ? If that is the case I don't see that as reasonable at all - giving the Reds all the advantages without any changes in their opponent's abilities, equipment, policy etc. is like INTENTIONALLY creating some Soviet fantasy Stalin could only dream of so the Soviets NEED TO WIN and will WIN.

    After all what will the Germans do with their Pz Is and IIs against T 34 ?
    In 1938 they didn't have virtually ANYTHING to stop the Soviet tanks.

    So what happens now ? The Soviets will suddenly, miraculousy be stopped by last-minute I-have-no-idea-what-but-surely-something or the Soviets suddenly start becoming incompetent to extreme which somehow didn't happen when they suprised the Poles and moved through terrible roads, forests and swamps of eastern Poland virtually unopposed, somehow...

    In real live it was enough for some third-rate badly armed reserve, volunteer and schoolchildren to give the Soviets enough to worry about in several places and here, somehow the Soviets beat everybody in difficult terrain and across the whole easiest to defend border of Poland...


    It all looks too amateur to find it reasonable enough - especially for someone who wrote many interesting posts before.
    Last edited by cegorach; September 06, 2007 at 02:40 AM.
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  17. #17
    No, that isn't a banana
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    Default Re: War of the World: 1938

    Not that this story is supposed to be realistic anyway, but you do realise the Soviets captured Lwow in 5 days in 1939, eh? Not to mention in this scenario the Soviets are using nearly 3x the forces they did in 1939...I think if you also re-read the story you'd catch the part about Romania...Not that you seem to even care what the answer is, given the obvious tone of your post.

    But you're right, this is just amateurish fantasy, and it looks like we've offended your dedication to reality, so if you want us to close the thread, I'm sure Garb will oblige. We never had any real intent to over-analyse what we were writing - it was just a vent for our creative juices at the time, and it turned out to be interesting for us.

  18. #18
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: War of the World: 1938

    I have a question, would USSR adopted T-34 so largely without the German invasion?? I remember read somewhere that T-34 were not prepared originally as the main tank of USSR, but other T-??.

    Edit: Also, it seems you guys overestimated USSR's logic supply... Without the help of US Red Army's logic was just like WWI.

  19. #19
    Hans Kloss's Avatar J-23
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    Default Re: War of the World: 1938

    I have a question, would USSR adopted T-34 so largely without the German invasion?? I remember read somewhere that T-34 were not prepared originally as the main tank of USSR, but other T-??
    T-34 was intened as replacement for ageing BT tanks and decision to develop new medium tank was taken in mid 1937, well before any threat of Nazi invasions.

    but you do realise the Soviets captured Lwow in 5 days in 1939, eh?
    Lwow was actually handed to Soviets by retreating Germans.Cegorach is quite right - in 1939 Soviet troops were having serious problems fighting third category troops supported by locals.What would have been like if they were to come face to face with regular Polish army, we can only speculate.

  20. #20
    No, that isn't a banana
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    Default Re: War of the World: 1938

    ...which doesn't make it impossible...anywho, as was mentioned earlier, this was something we thought would be fun to do, without having to get to deep into what was likely and what wasn't...

    The Russians would have been more than capable of supplying their aremed forces in a campaign against Poland in 1938. Their logisitcal system only desintegrated after the German invasion in '41.

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