Teutonic Knights

[Kalos]

There'll be a recuritable Teutonic Knight unit for Jerusalem or something... right? I mean, they're so awesome and they'd work. Teutonic Knights were formed in Acre at the end of the 12th century and they fought with Hospitallers and Templars and stuff... How can you say no to these guys?

[AdmiringtheEnemyeh?]

Hm.. and prolong the release 2 more weeks, i dunno about that. They are pretty sweet though. Maybe he should clear his shield Spartan style.

[Kalos]

Um. Not that hard to include Teutonic infantry and/or knight units. All you do is use the amazing ones in Stainless Steel (I <3 those ones, their tunics don't change to the faction coat of arms as you upgrade their armor) or hell, they could even use the vanilla ones.

[AdmiringtheEnemyeh?]

True.. but they've sworn off from adding any more tasks. Also they want to do all skinning tasks themselves, so no SS ones. But you're right the vanilla ones would be perfectly fine. They're a must for 2.0

[Miraj]

We had them in before the KOJ redo, but I haven't noticed them as part of the KoJ native roster currently.

Best to wait for AD or Ahiga to comment on this.

[Lykaor]

I think they'd hurt the balance as the KoJ already has loads of heavy infantery. But as I'm a German, I'd also like to see them in the mod

[Randarkmaan]

Even if they were included they wouldn't be heavy infantry, they'd be heavy cavalry. The order knights weren't pseudo-legionaries preferring to fight on foot, they were basically knights following the same strict relgious doctrine as monks.

[Osskssa]

How he get his helm on with that giant rubber piles ring on his head??

[The Mongol]

Sometimes I think you have a boner for Teutons Kalos.

[Kalos]

Sometimes I think you have a boner for Teutons Kalos.

You noticed.

[John I Tzimisces]

I think these guys would work well as a mercenary...but sadly I think muslims would be able to recruit them...

Only saying because Levon the Magnificent, the first crowned king of Armenian Cilicia, was a signatory founding member of the order...

[Ahiga]

I think these guys would work well as a mercenary...but sadly I think muslims would be able to recruit them...

Only saying because Levon the Magnificent, the first crowned king of Armenian Cilicia, was a signatory founding member of the order...

Mercenaries can be limited by religion, and possibly by faction.

Writing a reply, it'll be a bit but it will provide some level of an answer, Kalos. :original:

[Miraj]

Well mercs can be specified by religions. So thats easily implementable.

EDIT: Damn you Ahiga!

[Kalos]

Alright, thanks Ahiga. I probably won't be able to see it 'till tomorrow though. I'm heading out later tonight.

Edit: Rofl, poor Mirage. Don't worry, I still value your answer too.

[Ahiga]

Summary being: Maybe in a later version we can have a Christian mercenary that's a Teutonic Order Knight on foot without the penalties a regular knight on foot has.

The approach to making rosters for BC was a bit more like MTWII than RTW. In RTW, you had entire units omitted from a roster for gameplay reasons, to force a stronger difference between factions. We typically have gone with something closer to the style in MTWII, but emphasized subtle differences with dramatic effects. For instance, in RTW-style design, the seljuks would have gotten no heavy infantry. Historically, they used heavy infantry in a limited amount. So we've given them high end, rare, expensive infantry which will have a low supply.

While we have chosen to go with a less restrained or strict guideline in producing a roster, we do need to take gameplay issues into consideration, and have had to cut back on faction's already done to make sure they aren't bloated, over-represented, or unbalanced.

One big thing we've had to do regarding the KoJ is 'nerf' their dismounted Knights. In Catholic Europe, there seems to have been only two cultures in the early (I would say before the 1300s, which is when I'd say the English started to prefer fighting on foot. They possibly did earlier, but not by the start of our mod) medieval era who didn't hold a bias to fighting on foot - The Normans of Northern France, and the Germans. While the Normans seemed only willing to fight on foot, the Germans appear to have even preferred to fight on foot and were famous for it.

Outside of those two areas, especially in the rest of France, and in the Kingdom of Jerusalem, there was a very strong bias to fighting on foot. I've read that in the Kingdom of Jerusalem, Knights were exempt from service where their horses could not take them or where they'd have to fight on foot.

So we've chosen to reflect that in the dismounted knights of the Crusaders. They still are heavy infantry, their armor and shield's don't change. But I've come up with a method to make them different from professional foot or dismounted horsemen of a culture more accepting of it by having a subtle difference with a dramatic effect. Let's take a Latin Knight on foot for Example:

• More armor than most/any professional foot of it's level (Tier 3)
• Strong attack with his longsword
• Wider Formation: Knights don't train to fight on foot as a unit as professional infantry would, need more room to attack and defend themselves. Side effect being something like this. X being a Knight, Y being a Daylami or Azat:
  
  YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
  X___X___X___X___X
  
  What should occur then is like with Gaul warbands vs Legionaries. 1 knight has to face 2 or more enemies, and 2 or more enemies have to face one night.
• Less Mass: Mass equates into the push a unit has. Higher mass, higher penetration. Low mass means the knight should be pushed easily, and be unable to penetrate a formation by a forceful charge.

Combined together, they are Captain Planet. No, combined together, they seem to become a much less of a proto-legionary. You can't stick them in a line and expect them to hold it. Ideally, instead of using them like a legionary, they become like Thorakitai were in RTR/EB - put at the edge of your Phalanx (Spearmen), flanking the enemy.

Now, why did I spend all that time explaining it? Because it's possible an Order of German Knights wouldn't have the bias to fighting on foot, and thus would have equal mass and equally compact formation as professional infantry, but with the better armor a knight has. They become a 'very heavy infantrymen'. However, I had reservations about where such a unit would fit. I wouldn't want it in the KoJ roster, as that would just defeat the point I wanted to make - If you want to field Proto-legionary armies, play Armenia, Georgia, Byzantium, the Ayyubids, the Khwarezmians. However, based on John's latest post, the Teutonic Knights could fill a niche I had in mind for awhile - a German mercenary Knight unit on foot, without the penalties knights suffer while on foot, recruitable by more than just the KoJ.

It could be balanced by having a Daylami Infantry Mercenary for the Muslims. A heavy swordsmen vs a less heavy AP-wielding Axemen with Javelins.

I just research the units, so I can't say for sure. But if Armenia had a relationship with the Teutons, and I know the Byzantines respected the German's prowess at fighting on foot, then perhaps a Teutonic Knight on foot with sword and shield would be viable as a Christian Mercenary.

The answer I'd give is maybe for the future, as I wouldn't be averse to the idea. Not for 1.0, though. It's entirely up to AD or Strelac, though, so I have nothing really to say except I wouldn't be against the idea, and would perhaps be in favor of it.

[teh.frickin.pope]

Sweet!

[Kalos]

I'm still here, and I'd be eternally grateful if something like that were included. Ahiga, use your charm to seduce AD and the others into making them!

[Ahiga]

Despite the wild allegations, I am not a blonde farmer's daughter from the midwest. I prefer them.

Just to re-iterate, I can't make any promises and will propose them like I propose any other units. I know you know that Kalos, but I wanted to make sure it went said. :original: Our Artists don't work by Commission but by Inspiration and interest, which is one of many reasons why their work is so wondrous.

[Kalos]

What if I pay them?

[AlphaDelta]

Making a teutonic unit wouldn't take much time at all..Open templars.psd, click on the crosses layer, desaturate, save, make the unit and unit info card, make the edu, mdb and edb entries and finally write the unit description text.

However we are unit and featured locked for 1.0 now.

Cheers