The Raven-Feeders - Suggestions & Feedback

[Agraes]

Suggestions & Feedback thread for the Raven-Feeders release.

[Mr_Breeze]

List of suggestions after first night of test playing. I’ll be testing as the Picts tonight.


1: Add more definition to the Celtic Cross, it looks like a mushroom, especially between the circle and t section on the cross

2: I don’t see why Gaelic units are available in southern Pictland. Though Pictish units should be available in the British Dal Riadian provinces, because Picts were indigenous there. So, in general, I think AoR troops should only be available when invaders have conquered a province and the indigenous people should leave some imprint on that province’s recruitment. I don’t think sharing a border with a culture constitutes enough influence to allow “cross-recruitment”.

3: Some troop differences don’t make much sense and need to be worked on. Ludodaoers and Gaimorlom have higher attack and defense values, are more numerous and cost slightly more than the Fibb versions this makes training the Fibb units pointless. They are supposed to be the same tier units just appear and perform different. The only benefit to the Fibb versions are they look cooler and they are new.

Rethink the units and rebalance them. If you can come up with reasons why one version should have certain strengths while the other has a weakness there. For example one version may be quicker, have more stamina, have more moral, hide better, have a higher attack, or defense.

The chodaoers already have such differences. The original unit has good morale and are fast moving while the Fibb trade that for the may charge without orders trait, +1 melee, +3 missile, -4 defense, and lack a standard bearer (probably by mistake) on the field. When faced with a decision on which to train I would chose the original without much deliberation. Improve the Fibb units discipline a bit so they don’t charge without orders, give them the fast moving trait (they have no reason to run slower), increase their missile attack by 2 more (they have no shirt so their torso is unencumbered), and add a Fibb unique standard bearer. I would have a lot more to think about. The Fibb units would be better skirmishers while the original would hold a line better due to defense and morale.

4: Due to the lack of garrisons and religious tensions disorder is rampant across Pictland. It takes up to 4 turns of micro management to stabilize Pictland, often losing provinces, and move it’s dispersed armies into two larger capable armies. The Army is split between 6 towns, 6 more towns have no garrison to speak of and are a click away from a riot. That’s half of a country with no garrison. One of those provinces borders an enemy Dal Raidian province, two border a Rebel province, and one is an island. Their enemies the Dal Diada have two of six (one third) of their provinces without garrisons. Alcluyd has zero of four provinces without garrisons. Is it common for Pictish provinces not to have a garrison in this era? It would add a lot of balance if just 2 more towns in Pictland were garrisoned with at least Dim.

Mumainha is also poorly garrisoned. Though there is less distance between towns and its capitol has a decent army. It would still be better if one more provinces were lightly garrisoned.



If you’re not interested in this kind of feedback just say so.

[Soggius Chippius]

I'm afraid my take on the new release isn't going to be quite as useful as Mr Breeze's there, so 'll just fill the role of delirious fanboy.
GOOD GOD this release rules. It seems to have relieved the only problem I had with the older versions, ie. the instability (haven't had a single CTD yet. Supreme job) while at the same time adding to the greatness of the bits that were originally good to start with. Had a (very) short game as Gwynedd on VH/VH and got crushed by 3 factions as once after I went all out attack against Dyfed (the faction south of Gwynedd. Not sure if that's the right name) from the word go. Managed to go smoothly for about 6 turns before the rebels opened up on me, at which point Dyfed brought a full stack out of the shadows and Powys decided to attack me. After that I was pretty much done.
Tried Dal Riada on M/VH after that, and I'm still alive and kicking and enjoying every second. I like how the difficulty was tweaked for them so they actually have a reasonable chance of coming out on top now.Just kept to myself for ages trying to build up my economy by utilising the novel concept of actually having a positive balance with them, then got attacked by Ynis Manaw. Managed to take them out along with their territories, then Alcluyd and the Picts decided to have a go. Still carrying out the war against them. Big thanks for playing with the religion conversion rates so I can actually convert a settlement in a reasonable time. That was one of the big problems I had with the old versions to be honest. Taking any Pictish settlement was a race against time to see if I could build a church before my army was kicked out and it reverted to a pictish settlement.
Anyway, congrats on a really nice mod.

[Antagonist]

1: Add more definition to the Celtic Cross, it looks like a mushroom, especially between the circle and t section on the cross

Things like new building icons are placeholders to a degree. The tech tree/buildings, along with traits, are the only major things still left relatively untouched from vanilla in 0.7, and they are the top of the list for a theoretical next release. Celtic Christianity itself isn't implemented as robustly as could be liked, but it was felt that it was better in that regard to have something playable now then to string you guys along for another few months.

2: I don’t see why Gaelic units are available in southern Pictland. Though Pictish units should be available in the British Dal Riadian provinces, because Picts were indigenous there. So, in general, I think AoR troops should only be available when invaders have conquered a province and the indigenous people should leave some imprint on that province’s recruitment. I don’t think sharing a border with a culture constitutes enough influence to allow “cross-recruitment”.

Our AoR solutions are generally based on the historical situation at the time, which was very fluid and there was a surprisingly far-flung intermingling of ethnicities and cultures. So there may be historical basis for this, but in any case the zones aren't totally finalised yet.

3: Some troop differences don’t make much sense and need to be worked on. Ludodaoers and Gaimorlom have higher attack and defense values, are more numerous and cost slightly more than the Fibb versions this makes training the Fibb units pointless. They are supposed to be the same tier units just appear and perform different. The only benefit to the Fibb versions are they look cooler and they are new.

Swabian put a lot of thought into the unit balancing/pricing, looking purely at stats will not tell the whole story (for example, some units are more cheaper or expensive because of their size, or even because their low upkeep pays for them over time) Since paying for each unit in gold is largely an abstraction in our era/period, gameplay considerations take priority: in particular, we want to avoid the possibility of mass-producing soldiers of any type, even basic levies, which simply was not possible in that period (when you play on Huge size, you are actually using the quantities of troops present at the time, 3000 men was a mighty host in Dark Age Britain) That said, the Fibbian troops are a relatively new addition and there stats may not be as rigorously tested as the older units.

4: Due to the lack of garrisons and religious tensions disorder is rampant across Pictland. It takes up to 4 turns of micro management to stabilize Pictland, often losing provinces, and move it’s dispersed armies into two larger capable armies. The Army is split between 6 towns, 6 more towns have no garrison to speak of and are a click away from a riot. That’s half of a country with no garrison. One of those provinces borders an enemy Dal Raidian province, two border a Rebel province, and one is an island. Their enemies the Dal Diada have two of six (one third) of their provinces without garrisons. Alcluyd has zero of four provinces without garrisons. Is it common for Pictish provinces not to have a garrison in this era? It would add a lot of balance if just 2 more towns in Pictland were garrisoned with at least Dim.

This issue came up a lot in recent testing, especially with the Picts. They should eventually receive "natural" bonuses to public order etc. to take account of their exceptionally decentralized nature (in a number of Pictish provinces, and some Gaelic ones, the presence of any kind of central "settlement" is arguably an abstraction) This might not have entirely made it in yet though.

Thank you for the feedback, it is very important. Note that we will be releasing a 0.71 patch containing the last few 0.7 features which weren't completed in time (like sprites) and we also mean to include any corrections which become apparent based on reports like yours. We'll also have an installer/-mod version, and hopefully a music pack in the near future.

Antagonist

[Draco Borealis]

I got one remark, the celtic christianity cathedral I got a picture of Roman barracks instead and playing as Dumonia I can only built first tier of stables.
Otherwise is top notch mod.

[Agraes]

Thanks people for your fast feedback

Onto Picts (Im very glad at least someone plays this faction that is so particular).

4: Due to the lack of garrisons and religious tensions disorder is rampant across Pictland. It takes up to 4 turns of micro management to stabilize Pictland, often losing provinces, and move it’s dispersed armies into two larger capable armies. The Army is split between 6 towns, 6 more towns have no garrison to speak of and are a click away from a riot. That’s half of a country with no garrison. One of those provinces borders an enemy Dal Raidian province, two border a Rebel province, and one is an island. Their enemies the Dal Diada have two of six (one third) of their provinces without garrisons. Alcluyd has zero of four provinces without garrisons. Is it common for Pictish provinces not to have a garrison in this era? It would add a lot of balance if just 2 more towns in Pictland were garrisoned with at least Dim.

Pictland is here represented more as a loose confederation than a truly united kingdom. This explains the lot of tension, lack of garrisons, etc. Drastical choices have to be made to secure the provinces. It is however possible to garrison all of your cities (the key is to use the northern fleet to send troops to Drucait and to the Orkneys).
It is maybe my developper point of view (I know most tricks of the game) but I don't think playing with the Picts is that hard. Once the provinces secured, priority is to defend the southernmost provinces, Fortiu and Fibb, against the Britons, and then if possible to steamroll Dal Riada. Wandering rebels armies can also be a problem. Next step is to size Dun Breatann and Ad Vallum, which makes the defense even easier.

[swabian]

3: Some troop differences don’t make much sense and need to be worked on. [...]

Rethink the units and rebalance them. [...] If you’re not interested in this kind of feedback just say so.

Well, ok...
just believe me when i say that you simply don't consider enough information in your comparison, such as the command attribute of the Ludodaoer and the very_hardy attribute of the fibbian ones, let alone the hidden attributes which you didn't even think of. The fibbs also have a bonus in woods which the others don't have, higher charge, a much higher critical hit chance and a larger charge distance and i even think they perform slightly better than the ludodaoer in total. they are better against light troops than the Ludodaoer and worse against heavy troops and i don't think there is a reason to give them the same stats as the ludodaoer at all. The Fibb chadaoer are better skirmishers and worse suitable for close combat, but their upkeep is 8% lower, meanwhile the overal difference isn't too high. The Fibb chadoer are more offensively oriented and better skirmishers mostly due to the larger range of their javelins which gives them a very relevant bonus against normal chodaoer (they are superior when skirmishing is involved). The Fibbian units are also restricted to certain areas and actually the normal choadaoer and ludodaoer shouldn't be recruitable there, so this is a mistake we will take care of, but the fibbs are worthy of being recruited though.

I'm not offended or anything, no problem, but don't expect that in future i will answer to things like this as elaborately as i did above. You can go by that if you think you found an 'error' like this, you didn't consider all the relevant facts.

cheers

[Mr_Breeze]

That is useful information Swabian, information that is not available in game. I am sorry for being so hasty to judge the units. It would be useful if some of that info could be included in the unit descriptions so others do not make the same mistake.


“The fibbs have.. ..a much higher critical hit chance and a larger charge distance..”

Maybe say “There blows are more accurate/deadly than other Pictish swordsmen, and they are eager to charge from a greater distance” in the description. Something like that would at least allude to them having some superior attributes making recruiting them worthwhile.


“The Fibb chadoer are more offensively oriented and better skirmishers mostly due to the larger range of their javelins which gives them a very relevant bonus against normal chodaoer ”

They are however slower which lowers their survivability a bit, and there is no mention of longer range in the unit description. I started to look at export_descr_unit before I wrote that last night, but I figured your average player wouldn’t look there to decide what unit to recruit.

/Edit at 5:05

Well I’ve done some play testing in the custom battles. I followed the playing instructions and gave each unit 4 experience (one silver chevron).


Fibb Ludodaoer VS Dinuadda-claiomhnaghta
Charge killed 0 and lost 1
Joined Battle killed 6 and lost 29

Fibb Ludodaoer VS Cliarthairi Tua
Charge killed 0 and lost 0
Joined Battle killed 13 and lost 26


Ludodaoer VS Dinuadda-claiomhnaghta
Charge killed 0 and lost 0
Joined Battle killed 22 and lost 43

Ludodaoer VS Cliarthairi Tua
Charge killed 0 and lost 0
Joined Battle killed 59 and lost 39


Going by those results I won’t be recruiting any Fibb Ludodaoers in my Pict games. Though the Ludodaoer themselves didn’t do too great either. It might be useful to have two units of them to reinforce the line but I wouldn’t put them in the line. I think the number of men in each unit may have had a large impact on the test. I may boost the Fibb units to the same amount of men and retest it.

I’m not really sure what the Ludodaoers are. They aren’t levies, but the description doesn’t say they are champions either. It would be nice to have some Pictish champions that can contend with their neighbors, unless that is historically unfeasible.

[Antagonist]

That would be units like Gai Aurmahr and especially the new Ludocingatae. Perhaps the "tiers" for the Pictish units could use some tweaking.

Antagonist

[Mr_Breeze]

I am not criticizing the tiers at all mind you just asking about them. I don’t know enough about them to criticize. I love the Gai Aurmahr, but I haven’t played with the Ludocingatae yet. It just seems that some of the Pictish high end units are not up to par, which may be historically appropriate. Though from what I know the Picts were successful at offensive and defensive campaigns, so they should be as competent as their neighbors.

[swabian]

The Ludodaoer are small warbands and unarmoured, but they are also cost effective and quickly to field (only one turn recruitment time). The Picts are not underpowered, but historically they couldn't keep pace with Brythonic cavalry and the Germanic mercenaries under Vortigern never failed against the Picts allthough they were usually outnumbered. The Picts have effective cavalry though and also champions like the Aumue Boai and Thomordaoer. The Ludocingatae are comparable to Campwyr, maybe even better, but much more cost-effective. The Aumue Boai are only surpassed by the best Germanic infantry or the Fianna for instance.

[Mr_Breeze]

That sounds good swabain, but I guess you missed my edit a few posts up.

[swabian]

Yes, that's due to the low numbers and their low missile protection. If you send them in after the missile exchange, they will perform better. It's not necessrily the case, that expensive units must be able to defeat cheaper units. The effect of expensive elite units in large battles is essential though. As i said above, the fibbish units should actually replace the unfibbish units which means its intended that you are forced to recruit them under circumstances. You also might need the option to recruit good units in small numbers if you urgently need to recruit something from bled out settlements.

[Radier]

Have only had time to try a little yet, but here is what I have for now.

First, I am just wondering why Seaxna starts with so much frisian units.
Where they in an alliance or something? Oh and btw, in a few turns I was down
to 45000 in debt . Hard faction!

Then I found a typo in the unitdesc. of Frysysce Út-here. "ROman".
It shall as you know allready be "Roman", without the capital "O".

Sorry, but this is what I got. Not much. What I have tried so far looks awesome,
and there was much more units in the game then I had expected. You deserve
alot of praise...

I will try some more this evening and drop by if I find typos or other things...

Oh, and sorry if I put this in the wrong thread. It is sort of a mix of feedback and bug...

[Aliksander]

I played with Dal Raida last night. Balance is better to a degree (even though I had to lose my fleet and take the Pict capital just to get out of debt). I understand the idea of not using masses of men (large unit size units) and focusing on smaller elite units to do most of the attacking, but this still seems impossible for the Dal Raidans as they start off with VERY FEW elite troops and NO cities that can train more than the most basic levies. I would suggest giving Dal Raida a higher teir barracks to you can start building an army without putting yourself further into debt by making masses of low-ranking, high-man-count units that are more costly than they are effective.

[Meothar]

I played a bit with Dal Riada and had a really hard time defending against everyone at my borders (including AI-invasions from Ynis Manaw), but after a while I could field superior armies (in numbers, not quality) and attack the Picts. Because there was only one city with more than 500 inhabitants in Pictland, I was able to conquer them easily. These small villages also never rebel because with one unit of 200 mercenaries, they get the highest Garrison-Law-Bonus.

Now, my treasure chests are cram-fulled and I hire every mercenary available to disband in my cities to increase growth. My first two cities are at 6000 now, but my spies tell me, that there are almost no AI cities on the map with more than 500 inhabitants.

[swabian]

Hmmm... how many turns did you play?

[Meothar]

It was about ~515 A.D.

[Dansk viking]

First, I am just wondering why Seaxna starts with so much frisian units.
Where they in an alliance or something?

I think the reason why, the germanic factions starts with alot of frisian units, is because many historians think that the Jutes where actually frisians, or Jutes which had migrated to frisia about a hundred years earlier. Anyway there's no doubt that frisians did migrate to britain.

The question is, is there too many frisian units? I think so, most evidence points towards a small scale frisian migration, but nothing more. Most of the invaders must have been Saxons and secondly Angels.

Personally this is my favorite RTW:BI mod!
I like the new unit, the Scyldingas, they rock

[Agraes]

Hengest's legacy points out to him as a prince who conquered Frisia then moved to Britain to become the foederati leader we know. Nothing sure about the character, he is even less attested than Arthur himself.

But Frisians formed a major part of the "Anglo-saxon" population. Procopius, a byzantine historian contemporary of Justinian, wrote a little about Britain, and its population, he recoreded Brittones, Angles, but also Frisones - not Saxones nor Jutes.

Exact definition is problematic. Anglo-saxons, in the VIIIth century and afterwards, reckoned themselves mainly as 'Englisc', when the Britons since the time of Gildas mostly called them 'Saxones'.