The Dutch Republic - Faction Thread

[Lou5je]

I was wondering... even if the Dutch would be playable, how would it handle the fact that some armies were not led by the government, but by companies (like the VOC - Dutch East Indies Company). This would lead to troops having flags with VoC in the middle.

Allthough I'm Dutch and would like to see it playable, I think there is little ground for the Dutch being playable. For some reasons: Until the VoC got broke and got destroyed by internal corruption, the Dutch had no empire. It was a collection of tradeposts that traded and used a divide and rule approach, letting local warlords sort their own fights, creating dependance etc. . It also never was the goal of the Dutch to create an empire, they were solely interested in trade and making profit (unlike the Spanish and Portugese, who also wanted to convert the lot).

Like Jarno, I don't think it will matter much. Historical accuracyis, as always, second to game enjoyment. The armies fielded by the V.O.C. could still be seen as 'Dutch', and for a game in which you play an all-seeing nation-running deity that lasts for hundreds of years, that should be good enough.
The same applies for pretty much every historic-themed game. I'm fairly sure that the Koreans never sent fighterplanes against the Aztecs, but that's still what I did in CivIV.

[Taxandrius]

the solution for the VOC-problem: a new building: the VOC tradepost:

• an upgradeable building ( like "minor tradepost" -> "large tradepost" -> "VOC regional headquarter" )
• built in your city => increases trade income and population growth
• from the stage of "large tradepost" -> possible to recruit militairy units: roughly the same as the normal Dutch units, but with a sort of "Union of Kalmar function" like in Teutonic campaign: when you've built a tradepost on .... you can recruit local aid troops.
• "minor tradepost" -> 1 free, special merchant --- "large tradepost" -> 2 free, special merchants --- "VOC regional headquarter" -> 3 free, special merchants
• run out of VOC merchants -> VOC goes bankrupt and you lose all yer tradeposts, special units trained and special ships( 'cause "there's no money to equip them" )

[Inhuman One]

Have the Dutch been confirmed yet as a playable nation? Are there any screenshots showing dutch troops yet?

[jarnomiedema]

Well, they are listed in the Wikipedia entry for Empire: Total War (which obviously doesn't mean squat), but they're also mentioned in the Facts on Empire: Total War thread over at the official forums..

The odd thing is, I remember very clearly that there used to be a link on that Wikipedia page that directed the user to a forum where one of the CA people listed several factions (including the United Provinces)..

Right.. A quick search on the sources behind the article reveal this link, in which Jack Lusted posted the following:

Confirmed factions so far in Empire:

Britain
America
Sweden
United Provinces (Netherlands)
Poland-Lithuania
Russia
Prussia
Venice
Spain
France
Ottoman Empire

And there will be around 50 factions in Empire.

I personally think it's reliable information when a game developer for the Creative Assembly shares this information with the fans..

[jackwei]

Well, they are listed in the Wikipedia entry for Empire: Total War (which obviously doesn't mean squat), but they're also mentioned in the Facts on Empire: Total War thread over at the official forums..

The odd thing is, I remember very clearly that there used to be a link on that Wikipedia page that directed the user to a forum where one of the CA people listed several factions (including the United Provinces)..

Right.. A quick search on the sources behind the article reveal this link, in which Jack Lusted posted the following:



I personally think it's reliable information when a game developer for the Creative Assembly shares this information with the fans..

good find gave u a rep for that

[s0meguy]

I very much hope they're playable... so I can conquer the world as my own country

British.. be afraid

[Inhuman One]

It would be rediculous if our ancestors werent playable in the game.

At this time we where at our prime. I never learned much of the dutch millitairy though sadly enough so I have no idea what kind of soldiers and uniforms to expect.

I know we had a strong navy with ships that didnt need much men to operate them, and I did take a stroll on the Batavia once, but thats pretty much all I know.

[Taxandrius]

It would be rediculous if our ancestors werent playable in the game.

It is, although I've got (probably) only 12.5 % Dutch blood runnin' trough my vains, I'm with the Dutch side of the forums, they should be in !
they are historically very important, so it's inevitable to inculde them

[Lou5je]

It would be rediculous if our ancestors werent playable in the game.

At this time we where at our prime. I never learned much of the dutch millitairy though sadly enough so I have no idea what kind of soldiers and uniforms to expect.

I know we had a strong navy with ships that didnt need much men to operate them, and I did take a stroll on the Batavia once, but thats pretty much all I know.

Actually, 'our' prime was just over. But still, I think Jarno's found enough sources to make it seem very likely that the United Provinces will be included in E:TW.
No need to keep harping on patriotically.

[Agent Provocateur]

I was wondering... even if the Dutch would be playable, how would it handle the fact that some armies were not led by the government, but by companies (like the VOC - Dutch East Indies Company). This would lead to troops having flags with VoC in the middle.

Allthough I'm Dutch and would like to see it playable, I think there is little ground for the Dutch being playable. For some reasons: Until the VoC got broke and got destroyed by internal corruption, the Dutch had no empire. It was a collection of tradeposts that traded and used a divide and rule approach, letting local warlords sort their own fights, creating dependance etc. . It also never was the goal of the Dutch to create an empire, they were solely interested in trade and making profit (unlike the Spanish and Portugese, who also wanted to convert the lot).

I don't think the VOC / "Dutch" thing is really relevant. The VOC was The Netherlands by proxy to all intents and purposes. Just like the East India Company Was the UK in India. The EIC ruled India till the Indian Mutiny in the 1850's (when direct rule came in). I don't think anyone would argue with the fact that Britain ruled much of India in say 1833?

The Netherlands / United Provinces / Batavian Republic should absolutely be in (and maybe avoid becoming Batavia?). Though maybe somewhat passed it prime Holland (sorry) was still a power to be reckoned with.

It should be a very interesting faction to play as well. Sandwiched between military megalomaniacs on the continent (Prussia/France) and an unscrupulous economic/naval/sometime enemy/ally across the North Sea how do you prosper as it did? Hopefully power in the game won't just mean regiment upon regiment but will also inculde economic power and ability.

[hellfire15]

well, one thing is sure: the first thing I am going to do after release is play as the dutch, if they are unplayable I will mod them in!

[jarnomiedema]

It should be a very interesting faction to play as well. Sandwiched between military megalomaniacs on the continent (Prussia/France) and an unscrupulous economic/naval/sometime enemy/ally across the North Sea how do you prosper as it did? Hopefully power in the game won't just mean regiment upon regiment but will also inculde economic power and ability.

I'll help you hope as well that power won't just rely on the amount of regiments one can field. The Dutch republic was always a prime target for all of its rivals both on and off the continent, but I think one of the main reasons why neither France nor Prussia ever really succeeded was because the relationship with Prussia was reasonable due to marriages and France was never able to succesfully occupy the economic heart of the country, which was protected by a series of fortresses and land that was flooded in case of war..

Louis XIV and his German allies managed to capture most of the Netherlands in 1678, but had to withdraw because the English fleet was destroyed when it tried to launch an invasion of Holland and the French and German armies weren't equipped or meant for occupation of large parts of the country..

The only time the French managed to capture the Netherlands was (surprise, surprise) when a heavy winter struck and the Water Line froze over, allowing their armies to cross into the heart of the Republic as if there was nothing stopping them..

Unfortunately I doubt the Empire:TW developers will go so far as to give such an ability to the Dutch, so I fear that (right from the getgo) it'll require a lot of diplomatic and military skill to keep the predators away. Searching for a powerful ally right from the start would probably be best (and I fear the best candidate for that would be France)..

well, one thing is sure: the first thing I am going to do after release is play as the dutch, if they are unplayable I will mod them in!

That is a given.. If they're not in there, they will be in there as soon as I decide which faction to replace with the Dutch..

[Agent Provocateur]

I'll help you hope as well that power won't just rely on the amount of regiments one can field. The Dutch republic was always a prime target for all of its rivals both on and off the continent, but I think one of the main reasons why neither France nor Prussia ever really succeeded was because the relationship with Prussia was reasonable due to marriages and France was never able to succesfully occupy the economic heart of the country, which was protected by a series of fortresses and land that was flooded in case of war..

Louis XIV and his German allies managed to capture most of the Netherlands in 1678, but had to withdraw because the English fleet was destroyed when it tried to launch an invasion of Holland and the French and German armies weren't equipped or meant for occupation of large parts of the country..

The only time the French managed to capture the Netherlands was (surprise, surprise) when a heavy winter struck and the Water Line froze over, allowing their armies to cross into the heart of the Republic as if there was nothing stopping them..

Unfortunately I doubt the Empire:TW developers will go so far as to give such an ability to the Dutch, so I fear that (right from the getgo) it'll require a lot of diplomatic and military skill to keep the predators away. Searching for a powerful ally right from the start would probably be best (and I fear the best candidate for that would be France)..



That is a given.. If they're not in there, they will be in there as soon as I decide which faction to replace with the Dutch..

The worst thing to happen to the republic was the ascent of William of Orange to the English throne - paradoxical. Peace breaks out and England and the Dutch stop battering each other to pieces to little ultimate effect. Dutch merchants start invest heavily in London as a commercial hub and England gains primacy in the economic "competition". The Dutch economy starts going down the pan in the 18th cent. and they are no longer the power they used to be. Holland gets bitter about English success and supports the American rebels. Later revolutionary France turns The Republic into a satellite satate and the Dutch fleet is destroyed at the battle of Camperdown. Sometimes "peace" can be the worst thing to happen.

I think the United Provinces will be one of the most interesting factions and possibly harder than in real life. Like you say I'm not sure TW will include some of the key elements that kept it safe. How will the famous Dutch water based defences be replicated? Will armies just be able to march straight from Paris to Amsterdam without obstacles? Will obstacles be under human control? After all it was intentional flooding. Diplomatic relations will no doubt be quite random in the game with no guarantee of a strong partner of an enemy's flank.

[Lou5je]

My apologies for the disjointed nature of this post. I'm responding to things from several other posts.

Yeah, I agree with both Jarno and Agent that CA isn't very likely to include the unique defenses that the Dutch skill at manipulating water afforded them. It's a pity, because it wouldn't be that hard to include. The trade-off could be made very simple: when the player chooses to flood the water lines, his troops gain a good defensive bonus. As a negative effect, there's an economic impact. Oh well, if it's not in, we'll just have to wait for a skilled modder to insert it.
I also agree with Agent that the V.O.C. and the Republic were pretty much synonymous. The main power of the V.O.C. was that it had the full backing of the government, apparent in the quasi-governmental powers they were granted. The States-General took an active part in the affairs of the Company.
There's an interesting passage in the wikipedia article on the V.O.C. that I'll quote here. The preceding paragraph deals with factors contributing to the decline of the Company. The article then goes on to state: 'Despite of all this, the VOC in 1780 remained an enormous operation. Its capital in the Republic, consisting of ships and goods in inventory, totaled 28 million guilders; its capital in Asia, consisting of the liquid trading fund and goods en route to Europe, totaled 46 million guilders. Total capital, net of outstanding debt, stood at 62 million guilders.'
62 million guilders... That was a Hell of a lot of money back then.

It would be a pity if a player can't truly step into the shoes of William III, even if it was solely for the fact that the rivalry between him and Louis XIV was one of the most entertaining personal feuds of the time. There wasn't anyone who could piss the 'Sun King' off more than the 'Protestant Defender'.
One of my favourite stories about Dutch history is how Dutch merchants supplied Louis with the grain he needed to march his armies into the Netherlands. Although this turned out to be a bad move that endangered the Republic, it paints a picture of the Dutch traders of the time: opportunistic bastards!
Oh, and a little known fact is that Comte d'Artagnan, the French Captain of the Musketeers of the Guard, whose name would become immortalized in Dumas' The Three Musketeers, fell at the Siege of Maastricht in 1673 when he was shot in the throat. That amuses me on a very nasty patriotic level whenever I see anything regarding The Three Musketeers: the Dutch killed d'Artagnan!

What I worry about most is the map. I hope the Netherlands won't be as shamefully compressed as they were in Medieval 2. While in that game it didn't really matter (as the two Flemish cities included were rebels anyway), but if the United Provinces are in as a playable faction, key Dutch cities north of the great rivers should be included, as well as the defensive advantage that those rivers offer them. After all, the Rhine has been stymieing possible invaders since the times of the Roman Empire.

[Dr. Croccer]

I hope the Blue Guard will be included. These were pretty much the best infantry from a country that was considered to have the best infantry in Europe during the Wars of Succession.

[Taxandrius]

please don't forget the "Belgian infantry" (used in the battle of Waterloo!)
Although this is the Dutch faction thread, We shouldn't forget the Republic had almost half (Belgian) Campine and later whole Belgium.

[jarnomiedema]

Yeah, unfortunately Belgium was the battleground of Europe for a long time, both in dynastic conflicts (as in shifting from possession by one royal house to another) and in military conflicts.. One would think Belgian mercenaries would be a good commodity in a game like this..

As for the Blue Guard, I remember seeing them in one of the episodes of 'British Battles', where they were dealing with one of the battles that William III fought in Ireland. (It was the first time I ever heard of them!) I think it is a shame that not more people here know about these men. I doubt there's anyone in the UK who hasn't heard of the Coldstream Guards or the Royal Scots Dragoons..

@Lou5je: if they will still include natural disasters such as flash floods, maybe those could be turned into an uncrossable river surrounding the main province and last for several turns.. But then again, we don't know what the game will be like and if it'll be just as easy to land an army in enemy territory as it is in M2, then the Water Line probably isn't much use..

[Krupp]

please don't forget the "Belgian infantry" (used in the battle of Waterloo!)
Although this is the Dutch faction thread, We shouldn't forget the Republic had almost half (Belgian) Campine and later whole Belgium.

I cant see what would be fun about having an army of Belgian troops at Waterloo.They ran all the time,didnt want to fight their former country men but who instead would gladly cut them down.And many were ill trained and would freeze when a decisive moment came.

[jarnomiedema]

That's a very uninformed and biased statement, Krupp. Belgian troops didn't have the same level of experience that British and Prussian troops had. Many of them were raw recruits and Waterloo was one of their first battles. It must've been absolutely terrifying..

Also, that bit about cowardly Dutch and Belgian troops at Waterloo is based primarily on British source material, where the officers in question were trying to write up their own troops and write down their allies (The Prussian were too late, the Dutch were cowards; us Brits won the battle all by ourselves; huzzah!)..

The Imperial Guard fled by joint pressure from British, Prussian and Dutch troops. There is also the testimony of a British officer who commends a Dutch regiment for flanking one of the Imperial Guard units and driving them from the field. It's funny how nobody ever seems to quote him..

[Taxandrius]

the blue should be included.
But how about the Nassau Regiment ? And the Jägers ?