The Dutch Republic - Faction Thread

[Yoram777]

That's one explanation. Another one is that the yellow dye that was used to make orange, faded away after some time on the sea because of the salty air and the sun. With the yellow component gone, the orange part turned red. For the same reason (other dye though) the light blue became darker over time.

Ok but whatever the reason is, the point is that the orange-white-blue flag was the official flag right? But the red-white-blue flag was common on ships.:hmmm:

[Skyler]

Ok but whatever the reason is, the point is that the orange-white-blue flag was the official flag right? But the red-white-blue flag was common on ships.:hmmm:

Look here for awnsers Yoram.

http://members.home.nl/tetrode/Geuzen/Vlaggen.htm

[Yoram777]

Look here for awnsers Yoram.

http://members.home.nl/tetrode/Geuzen/Vlaggen.htm

Thank you that was very helpful.
So after 1650 the red-white blue flag was pretty much the only one that was used right?

But as far as I can tell even though usually only the Red-white-blue was used, the orange-white-blue was actually still the official flag

[Sebdeas]

Red-White-Blue was easier to get a hold of then Orange-White-Blue at sea, and since the Dutch were very active at sea this was more used and in 1948 it was officially decided that it is Red-White-Blue.

[jarnomiedema]

I was thinking of something the other day when I was thinking about what it'd be like playing as the Dutch in this game and I suddenly had a little brainwave..

One of the most important strategies in Dutch history has always been the flooding of certain lands to prevent enemy armies from easily reaching their objectives in the flat countrysides of the Netherlands.. What if the Dutch faction leaders or certain high-end generals get the special ability to form a waterline (only in the Dutch provinces ofcourse), that makes it very difficult for enemy armies to traverse into the 'richer' provinces..

Something like broadening certain rivers, flooding certain crossings, leaving only a few entry points, that could then be easily defended.. Obviously it's unlikely it'll ever be incorporated, but it would be damned cool.. (I mean, the only reason the French revolutionary armies could conquer the Netherlands in 1795 was because of heavy frost, meaning they could just cross the ice.. Otherwise they would've been kept out..)

Oh, and we definitely need these:

[Sebdeas]

Well the french in 1672 or something like that tried to cross the ice but got shot to bits and the Dutch were far better iceskaters

A waterline would be very cool, hard to implent, but very realistic.
The main parts of those waterlines were actually polders, who could be flooded when necesarry.

[firekiller]

well i hope you can sail up the thames whit the dutch like they did in history

[Freedom Onanist]

well i hope you can sail up the thames whit the dutch like they did in history

As long as we can return the compliment

" Two month’s later, much to the surprise of the Dutch, The English fleet were back at sea again and on St James Day won a victory off the North Foreland, which for the remainder of the year gave them command of the seas. So much so, that Sir Robert Holmes was able to sail into the port of Vlies and burn two warships and a large number of merchantmen, and even put ashore landing parties, Led by the Marine regiments recently formed by the Duke of York, they pillaged the neat and prosperous town of Terschelling Houses, public buildings and richly stocked warehouses were burnt."
(ref http://www.deruyter.org/CHATHAM_Dutc...he_Medway.html)

[DeJongenJavanese]

And that's why the Dutch returning the favour in Medway in the following year after "Holmes Bonfire" incident.

[Freedom Onanist]

And that's why the Dutch returning the favour in Medway in the following year after "Holmes Bonfire" incident.

ping-pong

[Skyler]

ping-pong

Great Brittain had a larger landmass and no doubt more people occupying it.

Pong-Ping

[jarnomiedema]

For those of you interested, this wonderful website has an extensive database of military uniforms..

Over here is the Hendrik Jacobus Vinkhuijzen collection of military uniforms (the Dutch section). Aparently this man collected pictures of military uniforms from all over the world and at the link are all the Dutch uniforms, running from 1204 to 1909, which should adequately cover the period of Empire: Total War..

Here are a few examples (42 to be precise):

Infantry Standard bearer (1671-1713)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=91825&t=w

Cavalry Standard Bearer (1671-1713)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=91832&t=w

Musketeer (1671-1713)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=91843&t=w

Grenadier (1671-1713)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=91848&t=w

Fusilliers (1671-1713)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=91849&t=w

A number of different infantrymen, including a nice flag (1701-1713)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=91866&t=w

General, Officer (?), Sergeant, Grenadier and Fusillier (1718-1740)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=91885&t=w

Standardbearer (1718-1740)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=91878&t=w

Light Cavalry (1747)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=91901&t=w

Light Cavalry 2 (1747)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=91902&t=w

Light Cavalry 3 (1747)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=91906&t=w

Grenadier of the Holland Guards (1749-1752)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=91935&t=w

Fusillier of the Holland Guards (1749-1752)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=91937&t=w

Drummer of the Holland Guards (1749-1752)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=91940&t=w

Swiss Guard Grenadier (1749-1752)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=91938&t=w

Horseback Guards (1749-1752) (With distinctive moustaches! )
http://images.nypl.org/?id=91950&t=w

Trumpetteer of the Horseback Guards (1749-1752)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=91947&t=w

Orange Guard Grenadier (1752)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=91963&t=w

Sapper of the Swiss Guards (1752)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=91967&t=w

Dragoon (1757)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=92960&t=w

Infantryman (1765)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=92804&t=w

Gunner (1765)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=92815&t=w

Marine (1772)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=92756&t=w

Hussar (1782)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=93252&t=w

Uhlan (1782)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=93253&t=w

Guard du Corps Infantryman (1783)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=97786&t=w

Guard du Corps Cavalryman (1783)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=97785&t=w

Hussar Officer (1788)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=96189&t=w

Sharpshooter (1788)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=96202&t=w

Stavenisse Pous (?) (1788-1789)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=96801&t=w

Jager (1790-1792)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=94121&t=w

Cavalryman (1793)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=95344&t=w

Chasseur (1793)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=95363&t=w

After 1795, the Dutch Republic is captured by French revolutionary forces and Dutch patriots rename the state into the Batavian Republic. The uniform code is subsequently changed as well and strongly resembles those of the French of the period..

Batavian Horsemen (1799-1801)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=102455&t=w

Infantrymen and Jagers (1799-1801)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=102456&t=w

Line Infantry, Light Infantry (Carabiniers), Light Infantry (Jagers) and a Heavy Dragoon (1799-1801)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=102471&t=w

Standardbearer (1805)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=107422&t=w

In 1807 Napoleon placed his brother Louis Napoleon at the head of the new Dutch state, now called the Kingdom of Holland. Again, the style of uniforms was changed..

[B]Seventh regiment of the Line (1807)[B]
http://images.nypl.org/?id=101983&t=w

General and Staff and a Guard Cavalryman (1807)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=101986&t=w

Standardbearer (1807)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=102173&t=w

Louis Napoleon's policies are too independent of France's according to Napoleon, so he quickly removes his brother from the throne and simply annexxes the former Dutch territory. Dutch uniforms are subsequently replaced with French uniforms and Dutch soldiers are incorporated in the French army. In 1812, after Napoleon's defeat, the United Kingdom of the Netherlands (incorporating the Netherlands and Belgium) is formed and new uniforms are designed (although old French uniforms are still being used)..

Dutch Infantry (1814)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=119613&t=w

National militia (Soldier and Sapper), Line Infantry Officer, Jager, Fusillier (Soldier and Musician)
http://images.nypl.org/?id=120078&t=w

Phew.. Those were quite a lot of soldiers, but it should cover the Empire: Total War period relatively well.. Unfortunately there are sooo many different uniforms. Because each nobleman / province / city outfitted their own regiment, the uniforms are often vastly different, so I had to make a selection (which was pretty hard)..

Hopefully this'll help the people at CA to make some uniform decisions or maybe it'll help inspire future modders..

Folks, please do not post images of thise size and without giving credit where credit is due. Next time, just give the linke to the NYPL's site. You'll be doing a good thing for them and helping forum member's load times. -Empress Meg

EDIT: Actually, if you look to the top of the post, you'll see that I did post the link to the NYPL site and I posted the link to the specific collection, so I'm not quite sure how much more credit I was supposed to give. As for the images, I suppose you're right. Thanks for taking the effort to convert all those [img] links into [url] links.. Wow!

[different_13]

Damn man..

One thing about the United Provinces being playable - before Empire was announced, I was actually expecting the next installment to pick up roughly where Medieval II left off - the end of the Middle Ages/Start of the Rennaisance (1500 - 1700)

This would have covered the initial colonisation period as well as the pike'n'musket era. Additionally, they could either have triggers or mods/expansions for the English civil war.
Also, they probably could have included 'the Pilgrims' (or whatever) as an American faction - everyone says the 13 colonies should be paying money to the British at the beginning of THIS game, so I'm sure something could be implemented there.

More importantly, during the time period of my hypothetical game, Mauritz (Maurice) of Nassau invented the popular volley-fire system; the Republic had excellent armies; it was insanely rich; it won its independence (technically we were in the legal right anyway..)

I was just surprised CA went with the 18th century. Glad, because it's my favorite 'modern' era, but still surprised.

....sorry, went on a bit of a rant there..

My point is, I wouldn't expect the Dutch to be playable in ETW. There is a precedent though - Milan were playable in Medieval II. In fact, I'd expect an orange tide to cover Europe in much the same way - sheer wealth makes the Dutch a major player, considering we're talking about a game.


edit: ah, just the outlying bits are polders. Didn't know Bart de Graaff was from here though!

(...that probably makes no sense to anyone now... ah well!)

[Agent Provocateur]

@ different_13, I like your sig

On the Netherlands. I am all for them being not only in the game but playable. I think they would be one of the most interesting nations to paly and try to replicate what they achieved (17-early 18th c), a country with a very small territory able to punch way above its weight. The diplomatic skill, military juggling and naval supremacy required would be very difficult to achieve and challenging.

I suppose it will depend on what the game mechanics are. If it is truly an "empire" game then NL should be able to hold its own as it did in history - a combination of credible military defence allied with pots of cash from its maritime activities. This is what should keep NL a French/German free province, as it did in history. I have a feeling though that the naval strategy side might be gimped so that this will be impossible. In other words, a nation like Prussia or France will not be in a position where it needs to take into account NL's allies (judiciously "supported" by money).

Before anyone thinks I am suggesting NL only survived becasue of money diplomacy, I'm not. I'm well aware of the military achievements of NL.

However, being half Dutch and half English I am interested in the game allowing me to do what both countries did - use their navies to achieve dominant positions, and support ($) land allies (Prussia) in wars against predators like France.

[different_13]

I agree with Agent, I don't think the AI will be done well enough to enable that kind of warfare - If you share a border with an enemy, or even if there's only a single 'line' of territories between you and them - they're going to attack you. I don't think the AI will take into account the fact that the Dutch would easily be able to blockade every single enemy port, bribe their armies or hire enough mercenaries to beat them twice over.

Yes, I'm exaggerating, but I think it's more likely that the AI would overextend itself and try to fight multiple wars than I do that they'll try not to offend their enemies' allies.

It has been mentioned that the Provinces' golden era was in the 17th century, and as I mentioned above - they would be a prime power in a renaissance era game.
Being completely objective, I think IF there are only 10 playable factions in total, the Dutch shouldn't be one of them.

England, Prussia, France, Austria, Russia, 13 Colonies Spain/Portugal (just one of the two, imo) are all factions that I think should be playable one way or the other. A case could be made for Sweden also, as the North and Germany would be a bit bare otherwise.
Some kind of Italian faction should also be present..

So that's 9 already. Oh, and the Ottomans, whom I forgot - that's 10.
I think the various Indian factions (meaning in India) could have a strong case as well (due to the "ooh, elephants!" factor).

[jarnomiedema]

Actually, Different_13, the Dutch Republic was already mentioned by one of the game's developers as being one of the playable factions. (While it does lead to 11 playable factions at the start, it could be possible that they drop one or go upwards to 15 or something)..

As for should or shouldn't it be playable, I really don't care that much either. It's simple: I'll be happy if they're included, but if they're not, I'm just as content being able to play as Prussia, France or Great Britain.. I also fear a lack of sophistication for AI strategies. It seems likely that, despite the fact that the 'rebels' will now be 'small independent factions', in the initial turns, many of the smaller nations will be gobbled up by those factions that are capable of raising larger armies.. The Total War series has never really been about complete historical accuracy, so frankly I don't really mind, but it would be nice if it were very hard (if not impossible) to be able to secure huge empires through conquest without coming near to collapse..

Anyway, I can't wait for a few new screenshots.. It's been a while now and I need a new Empire: Total War fix!

[different_13]

In that case, power to the people. More specifically, MY people! Mwuahaha.. (etc)


Off topic - damn, I wish they were making a 16-17th century game now, I feel like throwing off the yoke of Spanish oppression again.. (lol)

Btw, someone mentioned Willem III a while ago - any guesses on how that's gonna work?

[BattleDrumz]

One of the most important strategies in Dutch history has always been the flooding of certain lands to prevent enemy armies from easily reaching their objectives in the flat countrysides of the Netherlands.. What if the Dutch faction leaders or certain high-end generals get the special ability to form a waterline (only in the Dutch provinces ofcourse), that makes it very difficult for enemy armies to traverse into the 'richer' provinces..

Something like broadening certain rivers, flooding certain crossings, leaving only a few entry points, that could then be easily defended.. Obviously it's unlikely it'll ever be incorporated, but it would be damned cool..

Actually, this wasn't all that uncommon. I just got back from a 2 month backpacking trip through France, Germany, the Netherlands, Switzerland, and Italy. While there, I stayed in Strasbourg, France (capital of the Alsace).

The city is built on a marsh and on a tributary of the Rhine. In the early 18th century, the city (the Alsace was independent from France) built a huge battery/dam on the upriver side. At the time, the city had the same star-fort defenses as that picture, and when they closed the dam, all the ground around the city was flooded.

In fact, the city never fell to any army.

Oh, and we definitely need these:

Oh don't you worry. Star-fortifications will be in there.....

Cheers

[Yoram777]

Hey jarnomiedema those are good pictures I’ve been looking for more Uniforms pictures myself but I could only find a few of those.

[Romewolf]

Dutch are a very cool faction they should be in the playebel