FACTION PREVIEW: The Kingdom of Georgia

[frontier-auxilia]

I guess tak ain't happy because the monaspa BG aren't steamrolling every other bodyguards unit they come around.

Yes the Monaspa are dangerous but it must also be noted that the ERE, Seljuk, Abbasaid bodyguards are also cream of the crops death dealers who are there to kill instead of parading with their fancy armor.

[iksterminator]

Firstly, I repeadetly say that it's a great mod and by asking a change I'm just asking for a small favour. There are no doubts about the great work and huge effort by team, they are also great.
What I try to say has nothing to do with team, it's about one specific unit: there were elite Georgian units that carried bows with them, like heavy monaspa cavalry and tadzreuli cavalry units, as tadz says. I'm talkin about those 15-20 chosen cavalrymen who accompanied royal family members on the battlefield, they were lancers.
And it's not even about being better that other bodyguards. All throught history if Georgian general engaged fight with his bodyguards, it was with a lance charge. There are numerous battles showing this, but I can't find a single battle, where general with his bodyguards peppered enemy with arrows and after that engaged foe. Most famous battles of Didgori, Basiani, Dmanisi - all saw action by lance charge. There were elite units that accompanied general in campaigns, but the bodyguard unit itself was not a ranged unit.
Again, we're not asking to make them stronger compared to others, just asking to make them the way they were.

[Takverely]

yes i agree with iksterminator

[Chapunia]

Takverely and iksterminator are coom men!!! God bless GEORGIANS!!!

[Thema'zandaar]

when 3 or 4 men is in the middle of 600 spearmen, what strategy do you want?

If you find yourself in this situation, look at what your men are doing. Are they just standing or fighting? Look at their fatigue and morale. If they don't perform, pull them out and send them back in. I have never seen a situation where vehemently outnumbered men were able to win. Even units with lower combat prowess prevail over better units when they outnumber them 600:4.

I like this mod and i want it was better thats why i post here

I would never question why you post here, we ALL want this mod to be better. I guess I'm just wary that some players might not utilize some valid tactics and strategies and then come back and say that this unit is weak. Who knows, tomorrow I might be one of these players

Firstly, I repeadetly say that it's a great mod and by asking a change I'm just asking for a small favour.

Oh, haven't you heard? Flattery will get you nowhere!

Again, we're not asking to make them stronger compared to others, just asking to make them the way they were.

I agree with this. Give them a lance that fires arrows.
Seriously though - I agree.

[Ahiga]

you cannt say that Seljuk bodyguards didnt hold bows, but they hold lances in this game. i think it would better if georgian bodyguard is malee

The Seljuk Bodyguard holds bows.

type             bodyguard seljuks
dictionary       bodyguard_seljuks      ; bodyguard seljuks
category         cavalry
class            missile
voice_type       Heavy
accent         Arabic
banner faction   main_cavalry
banner holy      crusade_cavalry
soldier          ghulams_elite_ha, 11, 0, 1
mount            eastern armoured horse
mount_effect     elephant -4, camel -4
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, very_hardy, can_withdraw, general_unit
formation        2, 4.4, 3, 6, 3, square
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         5, 9, arrow_ha_uh, 150, 30, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 25, 1 ;S
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         6, 10, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, blunt, mace, 30, 1

Firstly, I repeadetly say that it's a great mod and by asking a change I'm just asking for a small favour. There are no doubts about the great work and huge effort by team, they are also great.
What I try to say has nothing to do with team, it's about one specific unit: there were elite Georgian units that carried bows with them, like heavy monaspa cavalry and tadzreuli cavalry units, as tadz says. I'm talkin about those 15-20 chosen cavalrymen who accompanied royal family members on the battlefield, they were lancers.
And it's not even about being better that other bodyguards. All throught history if Georgian general engaged fight with his bodyguards, it was with a lance charge. There are numerous battles showing this, but I can't find a single battle, where general with his bodyguards peppered enemy with arrows and after that engaged foe. Most famous battles of Didgori, Basiani, Dmanisi - all saw action by lance charge. There were elite units that accompanied general in campaigns, but the bodyguard unit itself was not a ranged unit.
Again, we're not asking to make them stronger compared to others, just asking to make them the way they were.

The Seljuks are noted as carrying lance, sword or mace to charge against their enemies after the initial battle of archery,a and it is noted that in really no battle would Seljuk horse archery do all the fighting - a charge was always necessary. But this does not mean that Seljuk Askaris were most famous for the charged lance, or that the bodyguard of the Sultan was only a shock cavalrymen.

And I can quote where you guys were asking to make them stronger, not the way they were. It's their lethality which is the issue, not the weapon they wield.

but this bows are useless, they cannt kill enemy bodyguards. and why do they need these bows? t

i would not say anithing if these arrows were effective agains enemy bodyguards but they are useless. they cannot kill enemie bodyguards with arrows

The issue of them bearing lances is brought up because lances are seen as more lethal to enemy bodyguards, as is the use of AP weaponry. Lethality is something we can and will address with the unit - No bodyguard is meant to be a superman, but no bodyguard is meant to be useless. Again, I suggest you try the bodyguards who are pitiful compared to the Monaspa - Sindh, Oman, the cumans all have really weak bodyguards. And while we are willing to listen to requests and people are free to air them, we are not going to tolerate or give into aggressive demands which won't take no for an answer.

It's fine to request changes, but we are not going to change this. We are going to fix the superhero nature of some of the bodyguards, however. This isn't ego, so much as it is refusing to be bullied into being slaves to whatever whim some people have. The one thing you can really do to harm any suggestion to us is to really badger or demand it from us ceaselessly. If there was any inclination to change the weaponry of the Georgian Bodyguard, it's much less there after all of this.

If we simply followed whatever demands the public threw at us without weighing them against the nature of the mod, this mod wouldn't even have Georgia or the Middle East - It'd just be another trip through Medieval Europe.

[Tadzreuli]

Iks, Takvereli

firs look here:

http://totalwar.honga.net/faction_un...=bc&f2=Georgia

here is very usefull informations about whole faction, about units and etc.

please try to understand, this is MONASPA BODYGUARD stats:

att. 7/7 charge
miss. 9
def. 21 (here I think armour stats must be more high in future, + horse armour)

http://totalwar.honga.net/unit.php?v...yguard_georgia



this is Seljuk bodyguard:

att. 5//7 charge
miss. 7
def. 26

http://totalwar.honga.net/unit.php?v...yguard_seljuks

so, Seljuks General have more less attak stats, than Georggian General !

other Generals you can see yourself...

only Byzantian General, in whole units of BC, is unrealistic strong, as "immortial", I think and this is all problem

[iksterminator]

Ahiga, I anderstand what you say, but the guys didn't yield bows, that's a fact. And talking about not including the faction in the mod, than why should one include in that timeframe and place ERE, Georgia, Crusaders, Seljuks - when you do include at that time half state-half vassal Armenia and Abbasid Khalifat. After all you can make any mod you wish, and it's your right to make one as you decide to have it. But if somebody thinks it would be nice to woop Seljuk asses with any ERE unit at that time in history and show this to millions of TWII fans, it's not correct to the fact of history (I know you don't do that, just givin an example), so if bodyguards were melee lancers, why for god's sake should they wear the bows? Is this bacause of a medieval "Gucci" style or "D&G" quiver design that makes them fashionable to wear? If that's the case, than why not have "YSL" eyerings on those bodyguard horses?
Seriously, Ahiga, I know you have caucasian blood in veins, do you beleive any of caucasian royal family members would shoot enemies from bow instead of direct charge? Is that what Armenians or Georgians did? If not, then why should we show it to the rest of the world, when it's not true?!

[Taneda Santôka]

so if bodyguards were melee lancers, why for god's sake should they wear the bows? Is this bacause of a medieval "Gucci" style or "D&G" quiver design that makes them fashionable to wear? If that's the case, than why not have "YSL" eyerings on those bodyguard horses?
Seriously, Ahiga, I know you have caucasian blood in veins, do you beleive any of caucasian royal family members would shoot enemies from bow instead of direct charge? Is that what Armenians or Georgians did? If not, then why should we show it to the rest of the world, when it's not true?!

:hmmm:
Eastern warfare has a long history of heavy cavalry/cataphracts using bows, and I don't see the problem, since you have not provided any evidence that georgian bodyguards did absolutely not use bows.
However, your insistence and bad jokes might get some members upset, especialy for such a minor issue.

[anaztazioch]

Ahiga, I anderstand what you say, but the guys didn't yield bows, that's a fact. And talking about not including the faction in the mod, than why should one include in that timeframe and place ERE, Georgia, Crusaders, Seljuks - when you do include at that time half state-half vassal Armenia and Abbasid Khalifat. After all you can make any mod you wish, and it's your right to make one as you decide to have it. But if somebody thinks it would be nice to woop Seljuk asses with any ERE unit at that time in history and show this to millions of TWII fans, it's not correct to the fact of history (I know you don't do that, just givin an example), so if bodyguards were melee lancers, why for god's sake should they wear the bows? Is this bacause of a medieval "Gucci" style or "D&G" quiver design that makes them fashionable to wear? If that's the case, than why not have "YSL" eyerings on those bodyguard horses?
Seriously, Ahiga, I know you have caucasian blood in veins, do you beleive any of caucasian royal family members would shoot enemies from bow instead of direct charge? Is that what Armenians or Georgians did? If not, then why should we show it to the rest of the world, when it's not true?!

Mongols/Cumans/Tatars used HA to make enemy cavalry charge/chase HAs, leaving infantry open for their own lancers, or to drive lancers into a trap. Georgia being bordered with them, surelly learned their tactics and started to use bows in cavalry as well, or their kingdom would be "dead" long before Mongols.

[christof139]

Well, just change the stats in your copy of the mod. I think I am going to that, and have done some minor tweaks elsewhere, I usually do that with mods and vanilla games anyway.

Chris

[Takverely]

DAVIT IV(re-builder) was the first warrior who attacked enemy forces in the battle of ERTSUKHI do you think his bodyguards had bows? very often Georgian kings and their bodyguards were the first warriors who attacked enemies, and they didnt charge enemies with bows

and why do the members upset? we only ask for some little changes. we want a little thing, lances, but not little lances of course

[Bull]

Just mod it yourselves, it's not that hard.
Just change the soldier model and skin of the bodyguard to that of monaspa lancers and there you go!!! Don't forget to change the stats though.

Besides, I like my bodyguards with bows, they can sit back and still score some kills. I prefer not to charge my 10star general into enemy infantry in the odd chance that some peasants got lucky.

Really, Georgia has too good a spearmen roster not to use them against enemy generals. You shouldn't risk your general for that task. So what if your georgian general got lances? Are you going to charge them at ERE bodyguard the first chance you've got? With their heavier armor and AP maces georgian general's not going to last 10 seconds.

[Jon Bibiluri]

guys,

Tadzreuli has shown excellent example about units stats, please read Tadz's post first. Georgian BG aren't weak, they have very strong ability to fight with swords.

I think should be increase male attack for Georgian BG.

[Jon Bibiluri]

Are you going to charge them at ERE bodyguard the first chance you've got? With their heavier armor and AP maces georgian general's not going to last 10 seconds.

yes, you are right, Byzantian BG have very, very much unrealistic stats... also Georgian BG is more effective against other troops, first he shot with bow, then kill with sword. but I think Georgian BG's bows "doesn't work" properly

[Takverely]

hmm and what did i say? yes you are right these bows are useless.

Georgian general is not going to last 10 seconds? and how long does he last now? 11 or 12 seconds?

dont you read my posts? very often Georgian kings and their Bodyguards were the first warriors who attacked their enemies and do you think they charged with bows? yes Tadzreuli is right, Georgian Kings and Nobles bodyguards could use bows very well but you also must know that Georgian kings and Nobles ussually fought in the first line! and they did not fire arrows in fight. they had swords and lances.

And honoroble death is better than frightend life. its better to die in 10 seconds than ran away and fire arrows from 100 metters.

and for Georgians(sjobs sicocxlesa nadzraxsa, sikvdili saxelovani!!! rodis iyo qartveli mepe garboda da shoridan isrebs isroda? ra gchirt xalxno? isrebsac ki ar isvrian ipurtxebian ra, mag isrit kaci ar momkvdara jer, mag isrebis srolas ar jobia shubebi qondet da kacurad ekvetnon mteers? ar vici meti ra gitxrat )

[Bull]

Well, I've just tried custom battle and the Georgian BG's bows were working fine. They kill decent amount of troops, both from the front and shooting from the back.

The only problem is that their bows didn't take down any Seljuk body guards. But does that surprise anybody? Most horse archers have an attack of 5 or less and that's not going to penetrate no BG armour!! In fact, the close-bow HA are the only guys who may be good at taking down BGs and even they take some time!!!

So I think the bows are working as they should, and that you guys are just disappointed that you can't take down other bodyguards with these bows. But that's alright!! You also have the Seljuk, Kypchak, and Kwarezmian BG in the same boat!!! These guy also have the same "useless" bows (they use the same projectile). And if you are looking for someone to make you feel better, try fighting the Rajput elephant BG. Kill a few of them and the rest runs away. That's got to be the worst.

[Chapunia]

Georgian kings and their Bodyguards always were the first warriors who attacked their enemies! famous battels (DIDGORI,SHAMQORI,BASIANI,MARABDA...) With lances and not bows. Geogian Kings and Principals never ran away from battels, becouse they had lances, swords and HONOR, but only honor was not enough!!!

[Bull]

1. Use of bows does not equate to running away from battle. Mongols used bows and we all know how that went for Georgians.
2. I think the dev's made it abundantly clear that since real Georgian BGs were proficient in many weapons (bows, lance, swords, maces), they have decided to give it bows and swords since MTW only allows for two weapons. I am sure your concern is heard and they will duly consider it for the next release. But until then please stop this incessant request so they get get on with real work, AND before they close this thread.

[Tadzreuli]

Takvereli, Iksterminator and others,

this is only GAME, ...........

please, be patient all units are balancing perfect, except Mongols (they are very much too strong archers) and Byzantines BG (Biz. BG is "immortal").