How is this fact? may I see your sources?
Because considering that Hungary had united with Croatia, Byzantium was still a freaking huge and rich Empire for the time, and Frederick Barbarossa was crowned Emperor of the holy roman empire and made it into an powerful military state.
I'm not saying that you a liar, and i don't mean to sound harsh.
I just have not personally heard this claim before.
Geographicaly, Georgia Armenia and Caucasus are considered European, but are really transcontinental, being over Caucasus, junction between europe and asia.
But I think Davit is wrong about his smelly nationalist comment...
Just musing, but I dunno about that... They live in the Caucuses, but I wouldn't call them European...Azeris aren't culturally European, and maybe my Armenian friends would disagree, but I don't think they are either.
Geographically, shouldn't northwest Iran and all of Turkey be European too then?
Edit to add: Frankly there's no geographical justification for "Europe" at all. Culturally, certainly. Geographically, it's the same darn continent.
It has to do more with cultural connections than geographics, I think. In the same way the Caucasian is retained as a term despite its inaccuracy, the Orthodox nature of Georgia & Armenia has them sometimes counted as an Eastern European nation (The same way Russia might be, even though most of Russia is not in Europe)
Considering most Europeans don't even have a religious affiliation, I don't think that's a legit reason to dub the Caucuses European. Even then, Orthodox Christianity is a far cry from Roman Catholicism and even farther from Protestantism. My Coptic friend could be European if it were just a religious thing. Culturally, they aren't European either, aside from having developed their own unique cultures, they've also been heavily influence by Central Asian and Near Eastern cultures...And places like Chechnya pose a problem because of a large Islamic representation religiously and a culture that's a unique mix of East and West.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...on-cover_x.htm
:hm:
I don't think we particularly care.
We're in Asia, or at least surrounded by middle eastern and west asian people, and we're pretty culturally European.
Go there some time.
Also, who cares if Orthodoxy is farther from protestantism?
Also note there are only two nations in Europe where Atheists have a plurality...and that's the Czech republic and...estonia? Or Livonia? one of them.
Commander of TWC's North American Branch World of Tanks Clan: casual online gaming at it's finest, most sportsmanlike, and inebriated.
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Once upon a time eXc|Imperator
The bottom line is that it's subjective. Some will consider North Africa to be part of Africa (Beyond geography), while others lump them in with the Middle East. You can see the definition of Western Europe vary with the times. In Medieval times it was Catholic territories / Orthodox territories, while in the Modern day it was define by the Iron Curtain. Northern Europe too has changed, not including the English Isles at some times and including it at other times.
I was saying religion does not a culture make. Armenia's Christian, and many Middle Eastern countries have Christians, and they aren't European. And perhaps Georgia is culturally European, but what of Azerbaijan or Armenia or even Chechnya?
I'm woefully ignorant of Georgian culture, so I must ask you this: If I were to compare Georgian culture to, say, German culture, and then Georgian culture to one of its neighbors to the south, which would it be closer to?
As I posted earlier, I have no objection with European-ness as a cultural qualification, though it is maddeningly vague, but rather with its use geographically. Eurasia is a continent and a legitimate geographical designation. Europe, geographically, is not.
And also note, atheism's a far cry from indifference to religion. Read the article above, and consult the link below. Europe is largely declining in traditional religion and church attendance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...pe#Religiosity
edit: Ahiga was posting at the same time. Basically, ditto to what he said. I think cultural designations like this have some merit, but are generally too vague.
I am georgian and perosnally I dont care if we are called europeans or asians. If someone asks me we are caucasians. Just like our origin and our language is not indo-european or turkish/iranian. Its caucaisan(georgian and north caucasians, also partly azeris). Ofcourse we(georgians) are closer to europe, and religion does matter. Want it or not religion does determine the culture of your nation.
However geographycly it all depends where u see the end of europe. For some its Istanbul, for some Ural mountains.
Well it does not say much. You know reason for slow unpacking? Maybe Tadz can help us
I am sure he meant one of the strongest countries in the region.Silly to argue who is better. Everyone was in different conditions.
Last edited by John I Tzimisces; December 13, 2007 at 11:41 PM.
HAPPY IS ONE WHOS HEART BEATS FOR HIS COUNTRY
(Try not to triple post please? Thanks)
Commander of TWC's North American Branch World of Tanks Clan: casual online gaming at it's finest, most sportsmanlike, and inebriated.
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Once upon a time eXc|Imperator
Religion influences culture, but it doesn't determine it. A Coptic Christian isn't the same culturally as Russian Orthodox Christian. A Muslim from India is very culturally different than a Saudi. Christianity doesn't make one European, nor does any major religion invariably denote a specific culture. They're too expansive and diverse for that.Want it or not religion does determine the culture of your nation.
Anyways, this is going nowhere. Georgia, regardless of this debate, is a fascinating and splendid place that has its own very unique culture.
Last edited by Besarioni; December 14, 2007 at 01:20 AM.
HAPPY IS ONE WHOS HEART BEATS FOR HIS COUNTRY
))
Last edited by Tadzreuli; December 14, 2007 at 10:24 AM.
Allow to ask, what you name the Europe?.... If some of you consider, that the Europe it of human rights and advanced system of legal assistance, to you I shall remind, that in XII century when queen of Georgia Tamara (1184-1213) in Georgia has cancelled a death penalty then in the western Europe managed court above animals, when in Georgia translated (V century) Holy Bible, then many people of the western Europe in a wood wandered!.... in Georgia never there were persecutions of people for belief, for example king of Georgia David Agmashenebeli - "the Rebuilder" (1089-1125), when has returned city Tbilisi from Muslim board and again has made its capital of Georgia, he declared full of a pardon to moslems of city and even has given them tax privileges: Georgians should pays 5 Georgian tetri (medieval Georgian currency) Jew - 4 , and moslems - 3, for Christians has forbidden to sell a pig in Muslim and Jewish quarters. About it many Muslim medieval authors write, that in Tbilisi moslems feel better, than in the most Muslim countries. Such humanity in relation to other religion and the nations it is traditional for Georgia to this day, because it is tradition of the Georgian orthodox church. .... at this time in western Europe inquisition stormed, which suited a genocide so much people what to count their number even it is impossible!
As to western Europeans I shall remind, that the European race of people has occured from Georgia, several years ago in Georgia, in Dmanisi have found a head of the first European. Georgians lived on Caucasus earlier and live now, and many European people have lodged in the Europe by migration from Asia (for example Hungarians and Finns send from Urals Mountains, Болгары send too from Urals Mountains).
First attributes of constitutional monarchy there was consciousness a Georgian when in 1186 noblemen have demanded from queen of Georgia Tamara to establish boards of parliament (!)... It happens up to century earlier, than in England (if I precisely remember)....
Georgian Renaissance XII-XIII of a century, ideas of humanism, which preached many Georgian church figures and poets (for example poem Shota Rustaveli " knights in panter skin "), has repeated in the Europe in XV-XVIII centuries...
The geography not too important factor what to define a cultural accessory of people, it can be defined only culture of people which it has created during own the history.
That's why we love mods and why we love community dear Tadz. Despite extremist posters and spammers important portion of the members which is including you also show great examples of historic knowledge and pure sense of contribution.
Frankly, i've learned so many things about history from you and Keravnos, Boztorgai, IrAr, Tzimisces, Celtic and other respectable members of this community. That's also why i share my museum pictures with you. Because this community encourage every member to "do someting" and "learn something".
May the god bless Kingdom of Georgia
thank yopu for kind words, my friendThat's why we love mods and why we love community dear Tadz. Despite extremist posters and spammers important portion of the members which is including you also show great examples of historic knowledge and pure sense of contribution.
Frankly, i've learned so many things about history from you and Keravnos, Boztorgai, IrAr, Tzimisces, Celtic and other respectable members of this community. That's also why i share my museum pictures with you. Because this community encourage every member to "do someting" and "learn something".
May the god bless Kingdom of Georgia
one question, I wish join as civitate, how can I do this?
You must ask another Citizen/Civitate/Artifex/Watchamacalit to patronise you, submit your demand to the CdC and pass the vote, then you eat a baby.
With fries.
Last edited by Taneda Santôka; December 15, 2007 at 11:08 AM.
Infact i've never asked another patron to make me a Civitate. Horsearcher has been asked me and wanted to learn if i become a Civitate what am i gonna make any contribution for the community and explain how it works. After voting among his house ( it was a necessity ) i've joined the team. It was a great honor and i still carry my badge proudly.