The European Union: My dream opposed to yours.

[Henners]

I think I'm a pretty reasonable guy when it comes to other countries. I don't hate anyone, I'll sum up my beliefs as to why that is.

1# The location of our birth is a random determination, therefore why should one feel pride for the landmass they are on?

2# It is pointless to feel pride for your nation's history, you did not contribute to that in any fashion at all. The only thing I have in common with Churchill is that we were both born on the same island, big whoop?

3# The only thing *I* as a person can feel pride for is humanity and my fellow Europeans. I seek only to move closer with my brethren.


Therefore to me the European Union, despite its numerous failings is a grand cause. My own little quote of my own; to reach your destination, you must take the first shakey steps.

Yet it seems the vast majority of the UK's public opinion is OPPOSED to membership? People even complain about the fact it has a flag... "Too Nation-like". The thing I say to people who tell me this is the following: Britain is currently under a supposedly Socialist. A major aspect of Socialism is the redistribution of wealth, therefore why complain about EU sanctions and such? If your money is being directed to your fellow Europeans then it is helping someone who is worse off, is there truly anything wrong with assisting other countries on our continent? It's helping a person just like you and me.

The conclusion to my beliefs is; I am a European first and foremost, I am not British; that is my home.

My dream would be to see a "United States of Europe", a continent under a central government but governed on a state-level by strong local autonomy. I also believe that if we can pioneer peace, the government won't need to be "decisive".

I'd like to see your views on the subject, am I a lone nut? Or do others actually agree? The nations of Europe are already becoming so close, Brits pop off to get wine in France, we go on Holiday to Italy... Meh.

And as for the "loathings" we apparently share, do we not blame the politicians of the past? The rulers? What did *YOU* as a person have to do with those? A frenchman is still a man, just like us; we can attribute whatever stereotypes we like, but a stereotype can never be universal.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Which Europeans are our brethren? The ones that allow the Americans to maintain secret CIA prisons where people are tortured on their soil? Or the one that try to ethnically cleanse the Balkans?

I feel as much unity with a 'European' as I do a stray pube.

[Carach]

heh, good point, ferrets.

However, europe cannot survive as a viable economic or military power when seperated.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Maybe not, but let's not pretend we're the same people.

[Dracula]

I generally agree with you Henners
I would just like to note that indeed - Britain was the one that was helped the most from Europe after WWII ,and mainly with german money...Not the vise versa .Even up to now,UK with its rabbat gets more from EU than it pays in .Not that I care at all but it must be clear . Though I would expect the winning in the war country to condescend to the lost one,it is the opposite .And why you messed up the things so much there as to loose your empire's fortune I have no idea .
As for the feeling of nationalism - really it rocks . However I don't see a problem to agree with some ideas prevailing in a country and to have a separate,national or not -culture ,since you like it .You are not obliged to feel "european " as well . But whatever you like and choose it must be your business and nobody has to judge your views .

[Dracula]

Which Europeans are our brethren? Or the one that try to ethnically cleanse the Balkans?

You mean who is etnically cleansing whom ?

[Richard]

Serbs cleansing everyone else within a 3000km radius, I believe.

[removeduser_487563287433]

I generally agree with you Henners
I would just like to note that indeed - Britain was the one that was helped the most from Europe after WWII ,and mainly with german money...Not the vise versa .Even up to now,UK with its rabbat gets more from EU than it pays in .Not that I care at all but it must be clear . Though I would expect the winning in the war country to condescend to the lost one,it is the opposite .And why you messed up the things so much there as to loose your empire's fortune I have no idea .
As for the feeling of nationalism - really it rocks . However I don't see a problem to agree with some ideas prevailing in a country and to have a separate,national or not -culture ,since you like it .You are not obliged to feel "european " as well . But whatever you like and choose it must be your business and nobody has to judge your views .

The UK was weak economically after World War II. Speedy economic recovery of Europe owes much to the USA, specifically the Marshall Plan.

[The Knight 2100]

Why such lofty sentiments for being a European? After all, you were randomly born in Europe, you could have easily been born in Africa or Asia, so wouldn't it be silly to feel a sense of pride for being European, or to have any sort of attachment to Europe?

[Carach]

beat me to it mr knight heh...

i support (kind of) a european union for the economic, military and political boosts it *could* give. Not for the love of europeans...

[*Misguided Leanings*]

Before I start i'd just like to say that in principle I am for the E.U infact a world union (ofc this can be done and keep national identities which I am for), but I belive in practise too many people loose out for benefits that will be long in the future, i.e we would have to unify economies crashing them all and weakening us, years of British farming would be undercut by cheaper foreign produce, etc. I feel this loss is too great. There are other ways of improving the current system that can also benefit every generation and other ways to help those less fortunate countries. Also I agree with Henners that E.U is the first step to a united earth but I feel it is un nessecary. I also thin that NP leads to competition, and if this is used in the right way ( ie not wars) then it can lead to countries advancing (mainly economicaly nowadays) and benefiting them and the us, the richer a country the more money they can give. I also agree that i do not want to join with the war torn/ causing countries of today, I would simply leave them out of the aid that we could give to accepting countries, I would also not want to help countries that wont try to help themselves, I would also not help countries that dont want to join up. Basically the E.U as it is ( with a few adjustments) is ok, the total alliance would not be, we worked hard for this democracy and this democracy says 'no E.U', I for one will listen to the masses.

[Dracula]

Serbs cleansing everyone else within a 3000km radius, I believe.

Aha .And why didn't they do it when they had complete controll over the territory for more than 80 years ??!!
I expected somebody smart enough to mention the ethnical cleansing of Kosovo from serbs in just few years -an ancient serbian territory where they aren't met any more .

@Ferrets : The Marshall plan only made debts in favour of USA my friend . If it wasn't the creative force of european nations ,nothing good would have come out .

[Henners]

Right, best way to do this is to address you one by one:

Ferrets, whilst that answer is remarkably short-term I am sure you're just finding the easiest way to ridicule the ideal. A process of which I am talking would most likely take hundreds of years or require a catalyst. The first steps must be to counter negative thinking on unification. Was it every Serbian that did it? Or individuals and politicians, we have to learn to not generalise!

Carach is correct, with China on the rise and the USA falling, the economy will shift towards the east. Now I as a person have no problem with this, it's about time in some cases. However; it is better for Europe if we become a viable economic giant.

Dracula, I consider patriotism an obstacle. Why should I be a patriot? I have made aboslutely no contribution to this "country", therefore what do I have to be proud of? Patriotism just leads to creating divides, and that I am absolutely opposed to.

The Knight, I refer you to my own saying, we have to take the shakey steps. I am absolutely for world unification, but that's extremely unlikely; first we must take on the first steps. The EU is the closest thing we have for now, hopefully future generations will move towards the grander objective.

Misguided Leanings, We have to make sacrifices for the benefit of future generations. It's remarkably shallow to think only of yourself; for if you do so, how can you help to set us on a path? And as I said; wealth is redistributed. If the UK ever got to the stage where it truly needed support then it would be given, don't think about being robbed; think about giving.

[removeduser_487563287433]

@Ferrets : The Marshall plan only made debts in favour of USA my friend . If it wasn't the creative force of european nations ,nothing good would have come out .

This is exactly wrong.

I love how Henners just told me not to generalise after his pan-European fantasy.

[Dracula]

Serbs cleansing everyone else within a 3000km radius, I believe.

Besides 3000 km on a straight line from Belgrade lies Dover ..I guess your information is from the American Department of State again

[Henners]

Shall I rephrase to stereotyping then? :o

[Justice and Mercy]

I'm fine with unificiation, I think it's ideal.

If it's libertarian in nature.

It ain't.

[Henners]

Lean to the right eh?

[Enemy of the State]

No thanks.

What do I really have in common with say, a Spaniard? I'm Lutheran, they are Catholic, I speak Estonian, they speak Spanish and so on. If I was stranded on an island in the pacific with a Spaniard, we would of course appear much more alike, because the natives would be totally different. But in Europe, that's not the case. The European Union is fine as long as it's an economic union, but I wont ever agree with an European super-state. I'm Estonian first, European second. I can only relate myself to my Estonian kinsmen, and more distantly to Balts and Finns. The European Union is good, but I say no to an United States of Europe.

[Marku]

Britain needs to act more european-y imo, we should adopt the euro and keep the US at a certain distant so we avoid problems like iraq thats strained our relations IMO. I think we do need to unique into 1 Union though, for economc and military purposes and i think we should adopt universal laws(ban cannibus in holland etc)