Battle System

[Little Legionaire]

Besides my question i must say this mod is most promising most unique project in all M2TW community for me. With all my best wishes BC team.

And my question is about battle system of BC. How is it gonna be?

1- Stw, Mtw and EB style realistic longer battles with moral, attack, armor, weapon and fatigue levels.

2- Rtw, M2Tw style faster battles.

What do you think about it?

[AlphaDelta]

3) All of the above.

Cheers

[Little Legionaire]

Thanks for your answer but how?

Slower than M2TW? Faster than EB? Sorry i don't want to push you so far but just wondering.

Kolay gelsin

Cheers

[AlphaDelta]

By fixing the obvious problems with M2TW.

* Lowered the attack of all mellee weapons
* Lowered the charge rating of infantry
* Lowered the attack value of archers and horse archers
* Roughly Doubled morale
* Increased defense skill
* Lowered the number of elite cavalry per unit
* Dropped number of bodyguard cav down to 8 (low unit size)

To name a few. Infact I'll post our entire system if you are interested.

[AlphaDelta]

Armour stats

0 - Bare flesh (i.e rajput levies)
1 - Fabric (i.e Turkoman lights)
2 - Padded fabric(i.e Nubians)
3 - Padded/studded/leather + mail coifs (i.e sergeants)
4 - Lameller chest piece (i.e Turkoman medium)
5 - Light mail (i.e armoured sergeants)
6 - Heavy mail (i.e kypchak nobles)
6 - Lamellar on chest, shoulder, legs (i.e Ghazi heavies)
7 - Lamellar + mail (i.e Persian lancers)
8 - Lamellar + heavy mail + heavy helmet (i.e Kwharezm heavies)
8 - Mail + plate (i.e Late ottoman siphais)
9 - Partial plate (i.e Vanilla units)
10 - Full plate (i.e vanilla units)

Horse armour

Value is added to units armour stat

0 - heavy horse (i.e latin knights)
2 - felt horse (i.e vanilla generals bodyguard)
4 - mailed horse (knights of jerusalem)
6 - half cat lamellar/scale (khwarezm heavy lancers)
8 - full cat lamellar/scale (Khwarezm heavy cavalry)

Shields

0 - No shield (i.e Pashtun cavalry)
2 - Small wooden/leather shield (i.e kypchak nomad lancer shield)
3 - Small buckler with boss or metal rim (i.e Turkoman light archer shield)
4 - Medium round wood/leather shield (i.e heater)
5 - Medium long wood/leather shield (i.e kite)
6 - Medium round metal shield (i.e Turkoman heavy macemen shield)
6 - Big wood/leather shield (i.e big kite)
7 - Large metal shield (i.e None so far I can think of)

Weapons - Blades (No AP)

(-1 if normal unit)
(-2 if peasant/levy unit)

Sword attack speed delay:

0 - Normal sword
25 - Longsword
50 - 2handed sword

1 - Small knife (i.e peasant knife)
3 - Machete (i.e No i.eample I can think of)
5 - Short sword (i.e Gladius type stabbing weapon)
6 - Medium length thin sabre (i.e Turkoman light sabre)
7 - Medium length straight sword (i.e eristavi sword)
7 - Heavy sabre (i.e ghazi medium sword)
8 - Heavy straight sword (i.e Khwarezm heavy cavalry sword)
9 - Two handed sword (i.e forlorn hope from vanilla)

Weapons - Axes(+AP)

(-1 if normal unit)
(-2 if peasant/levy unit)

Axe attack speed delay:

50 - 1h axe
75 - 2h axe

3 - 1h axe (i.e Levy ME axemen)
4 - 1h long war axe (i.e Faris axemen)
5 - 2h axe (i.e templar axemen)
6 - 2h war axe (i.e Heavy ghazis)

Weapons - Maces

(-1 if normal unit)
(-2 if peasant/levy unit)

3 - Basic wooden club (i.e Aztec clubmen in vanilla)
5 - Carved wooden mace (i.e Turkoman light macemen)
7 - Wood/metal ME mace (i.e Turkoman heavy macemen)
5 + AP - Spiked/bladed mace (i.e Knight of outremer)

Weapons - Spears

3 (spear bonus 0) - Jav sized spear (i.e urrrr, we have one jav unit that uses a jav-spear)
4 (spear bonus 2) - Small spear (i.e levy spearmen)
5 (spear bonus 4) - Normal spear (i.e Nubian spearmen)
6 (spear bonus 8) - Long spear (i.e Rajput Ghandara spearmen)
7 (spear bonus 12) - Near Pike (i.e Abna spearmen)

Optional

7 (spear bonus 2 ) - Anti inf spear (i.e ghazni spearmen)

Weapons - Javs

8 - Normal jav (i.e Rajput javelinmen) - cav range 35/inf range 55
9 + AP - Heavy AP jav (i.e daylami heavy infantry) - cav range 30/inf range 50

Weapons - Bows/crossbows

3 (range 140) - Normal light hunting bow (i.e Levy light archers)
4 (range 150) - Normal barracks unit bow (i.e Turkoman dismounted archers)
5 (range 180) - Heavy Recurve bow (i.e Kypchak dismounted bowmen)
6 (range 180) - Longbow (i.e Rajput longbowmen)
6 + AP (range 140) (accuracy reduced) - Wooden crossbow (i.e Sergeant crossbowmen)

Mental stats

All levies start at 4, low, untrained and add one point for each class (light/medium/heavy).
All barracks start at 8, normal, trained. Each tier up adds one point. At tier 3 they are highly_trained.

[Yoda Twin]

Thats sounds cool.

[Little Legionaire]

Truly impressing Alpha.

Very detailed classification and strong structure of all composition. Then we'll be prepare ourselves for an epic attack of BC.

Thanks for your kind attention and detailed information.

Godspeed

[Recon]

How effectively will a unit of spearmen stop a cavalry charge. -Like a brick wall? Or will a cavalry charge more or less be able to breach a spear-wall, but then slowly loose the battle?

Unlike pike's, I think they should at least be able to breach it and after that the outcome of the battle should depend on the quality of both units, NOT soley though, the spearmen will of cause have the "fighting cavalry" bonus. But no low quality spearmen should be able to hold back and crush any elite armoured cavalry, I think.


Cheers!

[teh.frickin.pope]

Unit attack values will have an add-on accounting for skill with weapons, right? Or are all units with similar weapons going to have the same attack stat?

EDIT: By the way, did I mention Brilliant! ?

[AlphaDelta]

I haven't done any conclussive tests with spearmen vs cavalry, but for the most part, lancer cavalry will fair ok against light and medium spearmen in a frontal charge, all other cavalry types will be ripped to pieces. Using any spearmen in prolonged mellee against any cavalry type will usual result in victory, especially now that cavalry numbers have been reduced.

Cheers

[Shadowcry]

So Mongols and Timuriuds have this combat system as well?

[The Mongol]

Great stuff Alpha.

Not only can you skin well you've got the balance down. I really enjoyed SPQR's slower epic battles, hopefully BC will be similar.

[Player44]

Will cavalry charge be increased while making cavalry weaker in melee?

[Rex Armeniae]

"* Lowered the attack of all mellee weapons
* Increased defense skill
* Lowered the number of elite cavalry per unit"

all mellee weapons... meaning cavalry also.
But I guess charge is left as normal?

[AlphaDelta]

Charge cavalry are quite different now..The charge value is increased, but the attack value is reduced. It's inline with RC.

Cheers

[Point Blank]

Looks really good, looking forward to it I like what you did with the horse armor too.

[Hounf of Culan]

A very thorough combat system AD, it looks very well thought out. I'm also glad to hear that it will be somewhat similar to RC which I'm a fan of.

[Shadowcry]

How effective are Horsearchers in combat? Can we make armies purely of them and own everyone?

[Miraj]

Missile attack of HAs have been toned down across the board. You can still own with HAs but it's going to be much harder than in vanilla.

You'll find in BC its best to have at least some infantry auxiliaries at the least, perhaps local mercs.

[Ahiga]

Theoretically, the only group(s) that could win relying almost entirely on horse archery would be the Seljuks, Rum Turks, and Mongolians. The former two have access to close bows, and therefor can damage their enemies much more severely, though like with history the Turkish strategy is to soften up the foes to engage in melee.