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Thread: Teppo Ashigaru

  1. #1
    Tanegashima's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Teppo Ashigaru

    My first post on this forum, just discovered this board! Really excited, I played Shogun when it first came out and I have always wanted an updated one!

    Just a quick question or speech, I don't want to ask something that has been asked a hundred times, however, I did a search and I could not find a real answer.

    How effective are the Teppo Ashigaru going to be? I really don't feel that the arquebusiers were accurately effective in Shogun and I also don't think they're fairly represented in Medieval II. I own a couple Japanese Matchlocks, and I can tell you that they are extremely deadly weapons in trained hands. I compete with a Japanese matchlock, and we START at 100 yards with a target 3 feet wide and 5 feet tall, and it is no problem to group targets in a dinner plate circumference with these guns at 100 yards (it is not a rifle by the way, but a smoothbore). Though I do think rate of fire and accuracy should decrease after every volley (fatigue, fowling, etc.) Few people give these firearms the credit they deserve, if they were only as effective as they appear to be in these games, then I really don't think that the Daimyos (and Europeans alike) would have invested so much in them. Though they cant lay as consistent or quick blanket of missiles as archers can, one volley of musket fire should be as if not more devastating. The range of these guns should be comparable if not greater than SOME of the Japanese bows (if this is possible of course in the game) Crossbows are only really effective at 50 yards and Yumi's are, in the hands of an expert, maybe to a 120 yards. The arquebus is still extremely effective at 150 yards and accurate enough to hit a man sized target, especially when employed en mass. I am by no means an expert, but I really think these guns deserve more recognition and some more utility than they get in the Total War series.

    P.S.
    If anyone doubts my claim of 150 yards, I will gladly take some pictures next time I go out to the range and prove it.


    My Tanegashima...




    Last edited by Tanegashima; July 27, 2007 at 04:00 AM.

  2. #2
    Seijitai's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Teppo Ashigaru

    Hello Tanegashima ! Welcome in our forum .
    As the units stats have not been "fixed" yet for the teppo units, your "real testing" informations are warmly welcome .
    I really like the teppo units ingame... Excepted when they receive a samurai unit full charge... I only use the bowsmen to cover the teppo while recharging...

  3. #3

    Default Re: Teppo Ashigaru

    Guns these times where definitely not as effective as you have desribed. I dont know how your gun was build, but you can try building another one by hand with modern tools - Im quite sure it will be not as devestating as now.

    Metal is hard to work with. In med. times it was a lot harder to get 1. a fire hot enough 2. good material (from our point of view) and 3. mass production.
    A real katana from a mastersmith was only for the very rich. Your weapon is comparable to this level.
    An Example: "Damaszener Stahl" (german) Damaszene steel? was in this times considered the best of metalwork in Europa. Give a sword of this to Oda and he would cut off your head for insult.
    And with what do you fire? Real gunpowder or normal bullets? Dont forget: In the rain the guns in this time were nothing more than long sticks. Its not an AK-47 which you can drag through mud (You should not do, but it normally works even after this).

    There were 2 unbeatable points for guns: 1. You need only a few days training to be a moderate good gunner, but years and constant training to be a good bowman. 2. It could hit the enemy away (a point that is underestimated today. But if you can shoot at an enemy who cant you have a huge advantage) and caused a lot of fear. That is also not really understandable from todays point of view.
    With guns your army had the initative over the enemy - the second most important point if you ask Sun Tzu, the old Chinese who is even today compulsory in several military acadamies worldwide. (the first is knowledge)

    And - most important - this is a game, is a game is a game. Have a unit too strong and it spoils the game. (e.g. a 16-generals-unit army: nearly unstoppable and self-regenerating)
    Last edited by LennStar; July 27, 2007 at 02:28 PM.
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  4. #4
    Turtules's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Teppo Ashigaru

    Ok that all sounds good but, we forgot to say

    Welcome to the forums!

  5. #5
    Tanegashima's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Teppo Ashigaru

    First just wanna say: everyone is really friendly here, thanks for the welcome PMs i've got etc.

    I use blackpowder, and my own hand caste lead ball, no modern bullets. Smokeless powder would burst my barrel and modern bullets aren't even close to authentic. Blackpowder is not especially water sensitive, rain, as long as the powder is stored properly, won't keep matchlocks from working. The biggest danger rain poses is to the match itself, saltpeter soaked hemp rope, which is what the Japanese used, is very hygroscopic, and would be what was most worried about. There were dozens of means thought up to 'waterproof' the match cord, but none really proved especially effective.



    The gun pictured is a modern repro, but all the parts are hand forged and the barrel is caste steel (made in Japan by descendants of the same smiths who made the guns in the 1500s). However, I also own several original pieces and the quality of the barrels and overall craftsmanship is absolutely astounding. Modern reproductions don't even come close to the craftsmanship and overall precision quality that the original pieces had. The original stocks are far better and more precisely inlaid for the barrels, the locks are extremely precisely made, with far more attention to detail than just about any non-custom reproduction I have ever seen. I would say most modern repros made with modern tools and materials are inferior to the originals.

    This goes double for European firearms I might add, I have yet to see a repro that was not completely hand made that came close to the quality, craftsmanship and durability of an original piece.


    Thanks again all for the warm welcomes!


    I agree though, that they cant be too powerful, a game has to be balanced after all. I just have memories of getting guns in Shogun and they were completely useless, a big waste of Koku...thought I'd throw in a reasoned argument that I could defend, instead of just posing "Guns kule!! wft they 2 weak!! Make better or NO DOWNLOAD arrrreghghghghgh!!"
    Last edited by Tanegashima; July 27, 2007 at 11:52 PM.

  6. #6
    Musashi's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Teppo Ashigaru

    I agree with Tanegashima about the stats for the guns. they should be something like he describes. Yes game is a game but ahving more accurate teppos does not make the game be spoiled. Instead if the prise of the teppos is high as it whas then and also as before whas posted they are not that easy to get it will balance the game and give ti a new strategy element. Also Teppos wont be very fast to reload anyway compared to bows and are extremely weak against cavalry because of this.
    Also they won't be able to shoot behind infantry lines but in front of them and that also makes them weak against counter attacks.
    I think teppos should be better units than they where in Shogun 'cause indeed in Shogun they where useles waste of koku.
    Even if a thousand people believe in a lie, it's still a lie.
    Oh. If you don't understand my english then I'm sorry. I'm just bad at it. Now playing:

  7. #7
    Turtules's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Teppo Ashigaru

    Yeah in Shogun they were useless.
    I had half stack of teppo against 5 Oda no dachi, i got killed.

    Seriously though the teppos should be a lot better.

  8. #8
    Seijitai's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Teppo Ashigaru

    I agree... I was always disappointed when a teppo unit fired against a samurai unit at 30 meters of them... And killed 2-3 samurais maximum...

  9. #9
    Turtules's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Teppo Ashigaru

    yeah. In RnJ it will be fixed ... rite?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Teppo Ashigaru

    I think so, this mod team is the best.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Teppo Ashigaru

    We made a Shogun mod for MTW/VI called Samurai Wars, and we did find that the effectiveness of teppo could be increased from what it was in original STW v1.12 without the teppo dominating the gameplay. We eliminated the weak and shorter range arquebusier and renamed the original musket to Portuguese teppo. We then created a Japanese teppo which is a better manufactured copy of the Portuguese teppo (This is historical.). We gave the Japanese teppo improved accuracy such that it is 1.5 times more effective, and it costs 1.5 times more. Other than that, the two units are identical: 100 meter open fire range and 24 second reload (7 second in 3 rank revolving fire). This reload time provides for 2 volleys in 3 rank fire on charging cavaly given the open fire range and the speed of cavalry. Alternatively, you can go to 2 ranks and hold your fire before manually releasing a full volley at close range. The Portuguese teppo achieves and average of 1 kill per 20 gun volley on a yari samurai unit at 100 meters, and the Japanese teppo 1.5 kills per 20 gun volley under the same conditions. All units have 60 men except for a few specialty units. A full 60 gun volley at short range will kill upwards of 20 yari cavalry or 10 to 12 heavy cavalry. The lower morale yari cav will rout, but the higher morale heavy cav will charge home. This is the designed gameplay since the yari cav is not intended to be an assault unit in this mod.

    The ballistic model automatically provides higher kill rate on cavalry than infantry, since they are a larger target, and increased effectiveness at shorter range, although, kinetic energy is not modelled so the kills at short range don't go up as much as they would in reality, and the kills at longer than 100 meter range don't drop off as fast as they would in reality. The battle engine models increased reload time and reduced accuracy vs fatigue. It also models increased misfires, from 25% to 75% misfires, for different intensities of rain, but for now we have made the teppo stop firing completely in moderate and heavy rain for the tactical gameplay it provides since in the MTW/VI engine rain typically comes and goes several times during a battle, and this is also how if worked in original Shogun.

    Our teppo units are cheap (200 and 300 koku) since they are ashigaru units. For comparison, archers and yari samurai are 400, no-dachi are 500, warrior monks 1000 and melee cav 900 to 1200. I suppose you can make a case for higher cost since the guns themselves were apparently fairly costly, but then you would have to make them more effective with consequences to the gameplay; namely turning the gameplay into Projectile Wars.

    In our mod, the better cavalry and the high morale no-dachi and monks can make a successful frontal charge on a full teppo unit, but it's not cost effective since these units are considerably more expensive than the teppo. So this sets up a gameplay where teppo, sometimes assisted by archers, skirmish so as to reduce the effectiveness of the enemy ranged units before attacking with melee units. However, the stats have been designed so that melee attacks on full teppo units are possible which leaves open more tactical possibilities.

    One other choice we made was to have teppo and archers all have the same open fire range. This is for playbalance reasons so that on flat terrain a player can shoot back if his ranged unit is being fired upon. Our ranged units have a large potential killing capacity, and if you couldn't return fire, you'd probably have a lost game.

    The choice of 100 meter open fire range is something that LongJohn originally chose so as to make the battles play as though the battlefield was larger. Once that range is chosen, the effectiveness of the ranged units has to be balanced against the speed of the melee units. You don't want the ranged units to be so weak that they can't deter a rush, and you don't want them to be so strong that they dominate the gameplay.

    Due to the relatively flat trajectory, the teppo's projectile travels well beyond 100 meters and will produce many back kills on units that are standing behind a target unit. This means that teppo have to move well out in front of the infantry exposing themselves to potential attack by cavalry, and it also means that corner camping won't work since there will be a lot of back kills in a cramped corner.

    We also chose the amount of ammo so that it's possible to run out of ammo during a typical battle. In this way, conservation of ammunition is a consideration, and skirmishes aren't excessively long. Our teppo have enough ammo to shoot continuously for 7 minutes which works well for our typical battle pacing of about 20 minutes. Archers use up their arrows much faster (2.5 minutes of continuous shooting) since they have a higher rate of fire, but they are also modelled to have some melee capability which teppo do not have.
    Last edited by MizuYuuki; July 31, 2007 at 01:57 PM.

  12. #12
    MCM's Avatar Saint of lost causes
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    Default Re: Teppo Ashigaru

    sounds like you guys did some testing

    good stuff

  13. #13

    Default Re: Teppo Ashigaru

    Exellent post MizuYuuki. Only if we could speak you out from your disgust on RTW. Battle balancers like you are rare treat.

  14. #14
    Turtules's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Teppo Ashigaru

    Kage are you going to apply some of that in RnJ?
    Last edited by Turtules; August 01, 2007 at 07:36 PM. Reason: Dosent have rep. enabled.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Teppo Ashigaru

    I am so looking forward to this mod, I have been playing samurai warlords as a substitute! I hope the battles are well balanced, do you think this mod will be released by September? Or later?

  16. #16
    Seijitai's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Teppo Ashigaru

    Quote Originally Posted by Eufarius View Post
    Kage are you going to apply some of that in RnJ?
    We are trying to... "cook" something...

  17. #17
    Turtules's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Teppo Ashigaru

    tasty.

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