Carthage and Iberia

[DimeBagHo]

HannibalOfCarthage: Apart from the helms, the units above are equipped like Greeks - Hoplites and Thureophoroi.

The issue isn't so much whether they looked like Greeks, but what sort of Greeks. Some people think they adopted the Macedonian phalanx and other aspects of the late hellenistic style of warfare. But, from the descriptions we have of the battles of the Second Punic War, it's hard to imagine how the Carthaginian troops could have been fighting in that style. So I think they were still fighting in a more traditional Greek style.

Coincidentally that also makes for a more entertaining campaign - you get to fight with legionary style troops in the west, and classical Hoplites in the east.

And if you want to play with Macedonian style phalanxes then you can play one of the seven playable hellenistic factions.

[perun]

Maybe a red brown would work, a dried blood color more or less, flat to eggshell in glare and not gloss. It was most likely soft leather rather than rigid leather armor.

I like this dried blood colour idea. Perhaps keeping the shields white and making the rest of the armour red would be nice. And inverting it for some units (shields red and the rest white) would give some colourfulness to the overall army look; even more colourful when you get the mercenaries involved, he he.

[removeduser_4563362]

Are you referring to how Hannibal in 217 B.C (right after the battle of Lake Trasimene) re-armed his heavy infantry with Roman weapons and equipment and drilled them so they would fight in Roman style?

They still would have been fight Greek style until 217 B.C.

[Scutarii]

They were and are fighting in the Greek style. Did you read the post above perun? The Carthaginians are fighting in the older Greek style, the Hoplite way. That is why the Civic and above infantry are Hoplite style units.

[removeduser_4563362]

So there are two Carthaginian infantry units that can use phalanx formation. That sounds about right.

But still why you couldn’t make them look more like this.

[christof139]

I like this dried blood colour idea. Perhaps keeping the shields white and making the rest of the armour red would be nice. And inverting it for some units (shields red and the rest white) would give some colourfulness to the overall army look; even more colourful when you get the mercenaries involved, he he.

Yeah, good idea about reversing the colors, as that would be easy for the graphics modders to do.

Also, most Roman Legionaire tunics were red or red-brown in color, as it did help to lessen the psychological effect of seeing your own blood running from a wound and also helped cover-up dried blood and wine etc. stains.

It would also be interesting to see some Libyan Javelineers and/or Medium Infantry with Mohawk style hair, as at least one tribe did this, but to do this also means more work. These Libyasn were used in the 1st PW and maybe before that by the Carthaginians.

Chris

[christof139]

Besides, what’s wrong with it? That’s just the way the Carthaginians looked. Like Greeks.

Btw, I don't no what EB-izing means.

Actually maybe not quite as Greek-looking for some units, as there seems to be proof that some Carthaginians may have worn the Phoenician type helmet, the pointed one that is basically the same as an Assyrian helmet in earlier times before they were partially ellenized with respect to their military equipment.

Same as the Romans adapting the Gallic helmet, the Monteforinio (sp?) type which continued in use until at least the mid-Empire unitl the Spangelhelm and its variations started t be used.

There is only one, just one I believe, grave stele from Carthage that shows a Liby-phoenician hoplite in armor that APPEARS SIMILAR to some Greek hoplite armor, maybe the linothorax (sp?) armor, and the helmet looks somewhat Greek. So, it is possible that the Carthaginians may have used different types of helmets and perhaps armor and shields, maybe what they captured and copied and had made locally and some carthaginians may have retained links to their Phoenecian etc. ancestory by ussing the Phoenecian/Assyrian type helmet.

Not anyone knows exactly what the Carthaginians used, adapted, etc. the description of the Sacred band is from earlier the Sicilian Wars and describes them in white with white shields etc. and using a Hoplite type of formation, and that is about it.

All we know is that Hannibal reequipped his troops with Roman arms after Trasimene and Cannae etc., and that seems to have been common practice to some degree, using what you needed to from captured arms to make good your own losses and wear and tear. After cannae, Hannibal made a bundle of $$ by selling Roman and Italian arms and equipment and armor captured at tha battle to various Greek states. including chainmail for the Greek Thorakitai.

So, some personal interpretations etc. are OK for skins. Adds variety to the game. I just don't like seeing ALL the Carthaginians with all white shields and tunics and plumes (and for plumes for common troops if they were used at all, they would probably be dyed black or left in natural horse hair etc. color rather than dyed/bleached white, and white plumes may have been only used for elites and leaders), but I can live with what ever the mod comes with as I know research has been done and that much original/primary source info. is lacking on the subject to begin with.

I wouldn't want to see exact Greek-copy Hoplites and Peltast types used for the Carthaginians.

Chris

[Da Erobara]

Great new units, they sure do perform well. So now, perhaps we can think about adding post-marian chainmail-armoured versions of them? After the first punic war, the Carthaginian military started armouring their forces with the roman chainmail, to give them better protection.

[removeduser_4563362]

Actually maybe not quite as Greek-looking for some units, as there seems to be proof that some Carthaginians may have worn the Phoenician type helmet, the pointed one that is basically the same as an Assyrian helmet in earlier times before they were partially ellenized with respect to their military equipment.

Same as the Romans adapting the Gallic helmet, the Monteforinio (sp?) type which continued in use until at least the mid-Empire unitl the Spangelhelm and its variations started t be used.

There is only one, just one I believe, grave stele from Carthage that shows a Liby-phoenician hoplite in armor that APPEARS SIMILAR to some Greek hoplite armor, maybe the linothorax (sp?) armor, and the helmet looks somewhat Greek. So, it is possible that the Carthaginians may have used different types of helmets and perhaps armor and shields, maybe what they captured and copied and had made locally and some carthaginians may have retained links to their Phoenecian etc. ancestory by ussing the Phoenecian/Assyrian type helmet.

Not anyone knows exactly what the Carthaginians used, adapted, etc. the description of the Sacred band is from earlier the Sicilian Wars and describes them in white with white shields etc. and using a Hoplite type of formation, and that is about it.

All we know is that Hannibal reequipped his troops with Roman arms after Trasimene and Cannae etc., and that seems to have been common practice to some degree, using what you needed to from captured arms to make good your own losses and wear and tear. After cannae, Hannibal made a bundle of $$ by selling Roman and Italian arms and equipment and armor captured at tha battle to various Greek states. including chainmail for the Greek Thorakitai.

So, some personal interpretations etc. are OK for skins. Adds variety to the game. I just don't like seeing ALL the Carthaginians with all white shields and tunics and plumes (and for plumes for common troops if they were used at all, they would probably be dyed black or left in natural horse hair etc. color rather than dyed/bleached white, and white plumes may have been only used for elites and leaders), but I can live with what ever the mod comes with as I know research has been done and that much original/primary source info. is lacking on the subject to begin with.

I wouldn't want to see exact Greek-copy Hoplites and Peltast types used for the Carthaginians.

Chris

Well, as for the Liby-Phoenician heavy infantry in the picture I posted. The helmet shield and pike are of Macedonian type believed to be adopted by the Carthaginians.


And thou you have a point not wishing to make Greek copy-cats out of the Carthaginians it’s a lot more complex then you think. First of all prior to the first Punic War the Carthaginians are described as splendidly armed with iron breastplates and brazen helmets, bearing great white shields covering most of their bodies. But you see around the time of the first Punic War a Spartan adventurer, Xanthippus arrived at Carthage with a band of Greek mercenaries and that his criticisms of the Carthaginian army came to the ears of the hundred and Xanthippus found himself commander of that army! LOL

Anyway getting back to the point, Xanthippus re-organized the army in Greek style. The African infantry of Carthage continued to be armed and fight in this manner until after the battle of Lake Trasimmene. As for what the Carthaginian African infantry who were armed in Greek style would have looked more like the Carthaginian in the picture with a linen cuirass.

Well in any case, I don’t think we need any more Carthaginian units with white and a blue trim.

[christof139]

Well, as for the Liby-Phoenician heavy infantry in the picture I posted. The helmet shield and pike are of Macedonian type believed to be adopted by the Carthaginians.


And thou you have a point not wishing to make Greek copy-cats out of the Carthaginians it’s a lot more complex then you think. First of all prior to the first Punic War the Carthaginians are described as splendidly armed with iron breastplates and brazen helmets, bearing great white shields covering most of their bodies. But you see around the time of the first Punic War a Spartan adventurer, Xanthippus arrived at Carthage with a band of Greek mercenaries and that his criticisms of the Carthaginian army came to the ears of the hundred and Xanthippus found himself commander of that army! LOL

Anyway getting back to the point, Xanthippus re-organized the army in Greek style. The African infantry of Carthage continued to be armed and fight in this manner until after the battle of Lake Trasimmene. As for what the Carthaginian African infantry who were armed in Greek style would have looked more like the Carthaginian in the picture with a linen cuirass.

Well in any case, I don’t think we need any more Carthaginian units with white and a blue trim.

Yes, however you are oversimplifying things yourself. For instance, the shield on the grave stele of the Carthaginian Liby-Phonecian Hoplite type is not an exact copy of the Greek Aspis/Hoplon. The Carthaginian shield on the grave stele has a circular central indentation I do believe, and there might be other examples illustrating this extant.

Beyond that almost everything else is conjecture, and the grave stele is only ONE example that exists I do believe. SOME PEOPLE believe that the Carthaginians completely and exactly adapted the later Hellenistic phalnagial equipment and organization and some people don't. Simply because the Carthginians when fighting Timoleon (sp?) and/or Agothoceles (sp?) in Sicily are described as advancing in a phalanx-type of formation while crossing the river with their chariots near hand I seem to recall, does not mean it is a phalanx type fromation modeled soley or exactly on the Greek Hoplite phalanx of the period, since the Assyrians, Persians, and most likely the Phoenecians used a phalanx-TYPE formation prior to the later Greek and Hellenistic eras. Seems that most spearmen type of infantry were organized in phalanx-TYPE formations all over the world including China, Japan, Africa, the Middle East, etc. and this obviously is not solely attributed to having exposure to the Greek world.

It IS NOT positively known that the Carthaginians ever adapted the sarissa or the long Greek hoplite spear in place of the Phoenician/Assyrian/Persian/Eastern short spear. that may be a good and logical guesstimate but not a positively known fact. And this is also true concerning whether the Carthaginians adapted actual Hellenistic organization for their phalanxes before or after Xanithippus, it seems they did fight in a phalanx-type of formation prior to and after Xanithippus reorgnized the Carthaginan levies for the one battle at Bagradas Plain.

It is not known if even Xanithippus used the eaxact and standard Greek 'hexidecimal' system (ranks and files of 4, 8 and 16, maybe 32 troops) of troop numbers for Speria/Syntagma and larger Chiliarchy sized Carthaginian levy phalanx units. The passages you refer to are vague, and I am familiar with those passages andothers, but only indicate that the Carthaginians did fight in some sort of phalangial organization, whether soley a Greek or Carthaginian type or a mixture of the two is unknown.

I tend to believe they did adapt the Hellensistic system to some degree or other, but did they copy it exactly or not remains an unknown. instead of using the Heelenisyic rank and file system of 4's, 8's, and 16's, they Carthaginians may have used a similar system of ranks and files of 5's, 10's, and 15's.

The same applies to Carthaginian Heavy Infantry equipemt and arms. Was it or was it not an EXACT copy of the Hellenistic!!????!! And the answer is that this is not positively known and that the Carthaginians may have kept some PhoenecianEastern aspects in thier military organization and equipment.

'Iron breatplates' do not = Greek curiasses!!!!!!!!!!! The grave stele shows a muscled curiass I do believe, but that does not mean that all the Carthaginian Heavy infantry wore these. You and not anyone else today can positively prove that the Carthaginians of the tmes we speak of had copied everything from the hellenes, and if the shiled on the grae stele is an indication then it shows that the Carthaginian shield is not an exact copy of the Greek Hoplite shield.

It is known that the Libyan Spearmen tribesmen in the carthaginian service during and prior to the time of the 1st Punic War used large and flat round shields with a central boss that appears to have been quite pointed or even been a spike type of arrangement.

All this is continually being debated and reinterrputed and conjecturized about by many scholars, and any conclusions are still educated specualtion because there is not much surving primary source info., and what does survive is sketchy and not at all very detailed.

However, once agian, I believe the Carthaginians began adapting Greek/Hellenstic organization and equipment to some degree or other after their defeats in Sicily by the Greeks, just as they adapted at least Roman and Italian equipment after Cannae, although whether Hannibal adapted exact Roman organization for his heavy infantry is unknown.

Also, there are many modern depictions of Carthaginian Heavy infantrymen that span early and mid and late periods.

I think the mod team has done a quite decent job of depicting the Carthaginians whether it is EXACTLY what I envision the Carthaginians to have looked like or not.

I like a little Phoenician/Eastern influence to be present in the way the Carthaginians look, as I and many other people don't think every one of them used exact copies of Greek/Hellenistic period equipment or organization. Maybe they did and maybe they didn't, it is at the present time not positively known and that is positively known that it is unknown positively.

Have you ever seen the grave stele I am referring to, the one that depicts the Carthaginian Hoplite type trooper?? Take a look at the shield and the explanations for that circular central indentation. That is not an exact copy of a Greek Hoplite's shield.

What the mod team has done so far is quite acceptable and sharp and gives the Carthaginians some unique flavor. I wouldn't mind seeing some Phoenician/Assyrian helmet types though for more flavor and a distinct historical possibility.

Seems the Carthaginians may not have been EXACT copies of the Greek Hoplite and/or later Phalangite, and may have not used an EXACT copy of the Hellenistic phalangial organization even when Xanithippis reorganized and commanded those Carthaginian levies at ONE battle named Bagadras Plain.

Phalanx type of organizations also existed before the times we are speaking of.

Chris

[Zarax]

No one is arguing that the carthaginians just copied the greeks, the common view on their military is that they adopted a similar style after centuries of feuding with them as they were the most effective military organization of the time.

Most battle reports seems to give a similar organization whenever hannibal was not present: a core of heavy infantry, "phalanx" (greek or macedonian is not known) on the center supported by medium/light infantry on the sides plus cavalry at the extremes and elephants either at the sides or in front of the infantry.
The real difference from the hellenistic organization is the heavy reliance on local troops, unlike most other kingdoms they were not just auxiliary troops but part of the main fighting force...

[removeduser_4563362]

No one is arguing that the carthaginians just copied the greeks, the common view on their military is that they adopted a similar style after centuries of feuding with them as they were the most effective military organization of the time.

Most battle reports seems to give a similar organization whenever hannibal was not present: a core of heavy infantry, "phalanx" (greek or macedonian is not known) on the center supported by medium/light infantry on the sides plus cavalry at the extremes and elephants either at the sides or in front of the infantry.
The real difference from the hellenistic organization is the heavy reliance on local troops, unlike most other kingdoms they were not just auxiliary troops but part of the main fighting force...

All I’m saying is, why they have to white with a blue trim? It just doesn’t seem historically accurate.

[Zarax]

This is just because we've been following the old vanilla colour scheme...
For all I know carthaginian troops might have worn red/purple or yellow uniforms as the necessary colouring agents were present in their territories...

Didn't the phoenician hold a near monopoly on the trade of a certain dye?
I forgot which one though...

EDIT:
On the phalanx subject: IIRC the syracusians had yet another variant of the phalanx, something middle way between the classical and the iphicrateans one, with slightly longer spears.
Carthage might have copied that formation too...

[Archbaker]

I believe the Phoenicians were famous for 'purpure' dye made from a type of mollusc, so they might have worn reddish purple.

[christof139]

Yeah, different color tunics/clothing and shield faces make it easier to identify units, especially if you wear bifocals etc.

Chris

[christof139]

This is just because we've been following the old vanilla colour scheme...
For all I know carthaginian troops might have worn red/purple or yellow uniforms as the necessary colouring agents were present in their territories...

Didn't the phoenician hold a near monopoly on the trade of a certain dye?
I forgot which one though...

EDIT:
On the phalanx subject: IIRC the syracusians had yet another variant of the phalanx, something middle way between the classical and the iphicrateans one, with slightly longer spears.
Carthage might have copied that formation too...

Yes, you are 110% correct in your very open-minded and excellent deduction. They could have used the approximate 12-foot length Iphicratean spear/pike.

Also, Alexander's the Great's father Phillip served with Iphicrates and some people speculate that that is where he got the idea of the arms and armor and tactical formation for his own Phalangites. Could be.

Chris-toe-fur or -furious, depending if it is spoken in Bar-bar or Greek respectively.

[DimeBagHo]

For most faction units we are stuck with the faction colours we have. For elite or AOR units I think we can be more flexible. The only reason I didn't go with red for the Libyans is that I couldn't get a colour scheme that looked OK. It's hard to make a lot of red work well.

christof139: Very interesting stuff - if you have a link for a copy of that stele image I'd love to see it.

[christof139]

OK, I'll try to find it on the inet. i don't have a scanner so I can't scan and send it to you. Off the top of my head, come to think about it, the image of the Carthaginian Hoplite type may have either a muscled curias or a linothrax, can't remember but i have books showing the image and explaining all this. i have a ton of books and have read much more of these times. Some of the books I have are not all too common, but most are and most are excellent and are way beyond Osprey, although Osprey can be pretty darn good. I don't have all the original translated classics but have the more important ones.

Chris

[christof139]

BTW, I don't know if it is known if Xanithippus simply wandered to Carthage looking for employment or if the carthaginians had already hired him to come to Carthage.

Chris

[Zarax]

I think the first option is the most realistic.
It was a very common practice for spartans to serve as mercenaries in order to raise funds for their cities and they traveled as far as Carthage.
Given spartan fame and Carthage's desperate need to turn the tide of the war, Xanthippus must have come there 100% sure of getting hired...