Welcome to Richistan, USA

[Count of Montesano]

I don't mean this to be a wealthy bashing post, but recently I've been reading a book by Wall Street Journal reporter Robert Frank takes a look at just how lavish America's top 1 percent income earners have become. It's called "Richistan" because for all practical purposes America's rich live in a separate country of private communities, private schools, and an entire separate economy dedicated to ultra consumption.

Here's a great summary of the book from the British Observer:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world...131974,00.html

Here are some of the more shocking facts that I had no idea about before picking up this book:

1. The top 1 percent of Americans hold $30 trillion in assets - more than the GDP's of China, Japan, and the EU COMBINED.
2. America's rich are the wealthiest in history - far wealthier than Rome's Caesars, the English nobility under Queen Victoria, or even the Robber barons of America's Guilded Age in the late 19th century. Adjusted for inflation, JD Rockefeller would today have far less money than just one of the Walton heirs (owners of Walmart).
3. There are more millionaires living in North Carolina alone than live in all of India.
4. Every year, the number of $50 million yachts purchased by America's wealthy would form a line 15 miles long.

Keep in mind much of this money is new wealth made in the last 10-20 years, a time when corporate and income taxes for the rich have fallen to an all-time low.

There are several reasons why this hyper-expansion of the wealthy disturbs me. First, the fact that 39 million Americans live below the poverty line (many children) and almost 40-50 million have no insurance demonstrates that in a time of great prosperity many are getting left behind. I'm disturbed that America's wealthiest pay historically low taxes in a time of war, when our troops have to buy body armor with their own money, not to mention a time when America has abysmal test scores and one of the highest infant mortality rates in the industrialized world. I'm disturbed that the rich have formed their own separate economy while the middle and working class wages have mostly stagnated - even Henry Ford recognized that a strong American economy overall required his workers receive enough pay to afford a Model T. Finally, I'm disturbed at what happens to a democracy when one group of people collects this much wealth and power - in Roman times it marked the end of the republic and 300 years of dictatorial rule.

Anyhow, curious to know what others think of this. Once again, I'm not bashing being upper income, I'm merely pointing out the current American situation and seriously wondering if it's not a major problem in the long run.

[Chaigidel]

well the fact that society is always in ever spot in human history reshaped because of situations like this.

when the rich get too rich and the poor get too poor eventually the billions of poor people will just go kill all the rich people.--and take everything they own.

I am bashing the upper income-- the super rich are the most devoid of any semblance of humanity, they are truly seperate from other people and consider themselves somehow better and above the rest of humanity simply because they have more possessions ( this is a classic idiot thought that rich people get-- duh i have all this money duh i must have earned it duh duh)

eventually something really really horrible will happen to the over indulgent super rich-- something like happened in france. back when robespierre started to choppin.

[The Knight 2100]

I don't see a problem with rich people having a lot of money. They work for their money, they deserve to be able to enjoy the fruits of their labor. And if they inherit their wealth, I don't think there's a problem with that either, they shouldn't be denied their rightful inheritance. Rich people contribute to society through their work, spending, taxes and in some cases, charity.

[Big War Bird]

I'm going to have to look into joining that Solstice club.

[Chaigidel]

rich people lay claim to the work of millions or thousands and claim they earned the money they basically stole from either the enviroment or the workers in the company.

NO rich man is rich through is own talents-- they are all rich through exploitation.

[Big War Bird]

Personally I don't spend a moment begrudging others their wealth.

Answer this question. Do you think our goernement wastes money. If you think yes how could you possibly think taxes are too low.

rich people lay claim to the work of millions or thousands and claim they earned the money they basically stole from either the enviroment or the workers in the company.

NO rich man is rich through is own talents-- they are all rich through exploitation.

I'm marking you down as a 40 hr work week type.

Winners drive home in the dark.

[Chaigidel]

I dont begrudge people wealth but this situtation ALWAYS leads to major catastrophe for the rich--- rub it in the masse face long enough and they will rub it in your face that there are more of the poor than there are of the rich

there arent enough bullets in the world that could stop the poor if they wanted to take everything the rich has.

basically this situation is temporary and the rich will pay for the crimes they have committed.

[Kretchfoop]

rich people lay claim to the work of millions or thousands and claim they earned the money they basically stole from either the enviroment or the workers in the company.

NO rich man is rich through is own talents-- they are all rich through exploitation.

That's a highly pessimistic view of things. I don't doubt that is the case for some people, but all? At what point in your opinion does someone stop earning money because they worked hard and earned it and they start making it from exploitation?

[Chaigidel]

probably when they start having more money than is reasonable

people with perhaps 5 or 10 million could still live excellent comfortable lives --- and I would say thats about the limit of money worth on any job at all.-- and in a perfect world only scientists engineers and doctors could ever earn that much because of the usefulness of the professions

how can a ceo justify a 900 million dolla check while a man who saves lives every day of his life only gets 300k-1 mil a year?

[Big War Bird]

how can a ceo justify a 900 million dolla check while a man who saves lives every day of his life only gets 300k-1 mil a year?

A great CEO is "worth it" becuase his decisions have a direct impact on the lives of thousands of employess, millions of investors and billions? of consumers.

A doctor saving a life is good, but a CEO making a 100 billion dollar company 2% more profitable is worth his weight in platinum.

[Tucker Dan]

I dont begrudge people wealth....
the rich will pay for the crimes they have committed.

ok.How is starting up a company, and having that company become successful, allowing you to employ more people and provide a better product service, than you, as CEO, becoming very rich equal exploitation? Thats Marxist crap. Who do you think pays for all the government programs and gives billions in charity to international causes every year. The top 5% in America pay around 80% of the federal bill, I can't imagine how much of these peoples, and their families' hard earned money is taken from them every year by our sticky fingered government. Or perhaps it would be better if we said no one will ever be able to have more money than say one billion, or half that, depending on how extreme some are. Profits are the biggest incentive to innovation and invention that we humans can come up with, fame also, but that also brings with it loads of money. Perhaps, instead of having fits of jealousy online about what others have, you can al go out and try to make that money. Its not a zero sum economy, there is plenty for us all to make. Think up a skill or product, try to get work exploiting that skill or, if your in America, get one of the thousands of small business start up loans that, thanks to Bush, are so tax friendly, banks are very open to giving. And someone said nothing would stop all the "poor" people from taking all the "rich" peoples stuff, besides the US government and the private security they would hire in such a situation , you are right.

[Valentin the II]

That is disgusting.
Its Ok to be rich but there is a limit to everything.
The goverment should empose higher taxes for the rich, much higher.
So for instnce a normal person would pay....40% of his income to the goverment, while a rich person would pay 50%, a richer person 60%, etc...
So the rich would still get their millions just not as many.

[PacSubCom]

Don't you understand that these people have

worked

for it? If they have a million times your income, they must be smarter than you, better than you, more

worthy

that you.

Tsk tsk tsk.

[Cluny the Scourge]

These scum bankroll politicians and produce tax-breaks and anti-worker laws for them to rubber stamp, then smirk contemptuously on the underclasses as they lavish the proceeds of their crimes and exploitation on luxuries that distort the economy more and more toward fields of enterprise that are of no use to the mass of the people.

You work hard - you make a million dollars - fine, well done. You accumulate 10 million - okay...maybe. You hoard 50 milllon +...okay, now what the hell is any one sane human being going to do with that much money, other than behave like rutting dogs and bare-assed monkeys?

[Count of Montesano]

Just for the record, I'm not against people getting ahead. For the first time in my life I have a job making over $50K a year - my wife and I now make $100 K combined. Having come from a working class family and spent several of my early working years in the army making like $10K a year, this is a huge leap forward for me and I'm thankful enough to realize there are many young families who are not in as good a place as my wife and I.

My concern is with extreme wealth - and while I'm sure quite a few millionaires earned their money fairly America in recent days has also seen a good deal of war profiteering, ambulance chasing, cheating the working poor by offering outrageous sub-prime loans, etc. Meanwhile our trade and national deficit grows ever larger, we fall behind other industrialized nations in such key benchmarks as education and public health, and more and more good paying jobs are outsourced.

So my concerns are two-fold.

1. Ages of quickly accumulated hyper-wealth have always ended badly throughout history. In America alone we had the Guilded Age and Roaring 20s which both led to major depressions. Going further back into history, Rome devolved into anarchy and finally dictatorship in no small part to the huge amount of wealth flowing to the top patricians after the Punic Wars.

2. I'm still not convinced this consolidation of wealth is good for America in the long run. If most of the money is being made through innovation and providing great products or services, there's little to worry about. If the money rather is being made off disastrous military misadventures, financial gimickery, and selling off American jobs and assets to pay off massive debts to foreign investors, we have a major problem.

[Chaigidel]

and in the end, one pure fact remains, doesnt matter what you have doesnt matter who you are; you ****ing eat in front of a hungry dog long enough, and you dont give him his fair share, the chain WILL break, and the master WILL fall.

why do you think the middle east is like this ? its because of the super rich wanting more.

society ends when the rich man thinks he is better or worth more than the poor man... society ENDs-- look it up read your history books--people will only take so much.

and it makes me sick to my stomach that so many people have been so ****ing tricked into thinking Trickle down economics works, and to thinking that rich men have any of our interests at heart.

[PacSubCom]

If the money rather is being made off disastrous military misadventures, financial gimickery, and selling off American jobs and assets to pay off massive debts to foreign investors, we have a major problem.

You have a major problem.

Especially the financial gimmickery, that's the culprit. I can't see much trickle down there, although the yachts they buy have to be built by somebody. but anyway, the general problem is that once those poorer yacht-builders and yachtsmen go buy something for themselves, most of the money will again end up in rich hands, and the related gimmickery. Often the money doesn't leave the gimmickery and goes around the globe into the pockets of other gimmickers. If then the taxes end up being collected more from the low money domain than the high money domain, there is less money available for public good works, with a decrease in living quality. With that money going to a large part again subsidising the gimmickers in a multitude of ways (Pentagon system). In the end, most work that is happening is benefiting the gimmickers, and not the poor yachtbuilders, ie gimmickers having private jets while all others have to live with rotten infrastructure, or worse infrastructure than is optimal. Looky health system.

[Ramashan]

I work for a billionaire who has started the largest educational (before Bill Gates got into the mix) charity and is considered the single individual to revolutionize cancer research. He is also responsible for financing the celluar networks in their infancy and changed investing forever in the 80's. I've traveled with this man to basball games and have seen people in the stands push past the player signing balls so they could talk to my employer.

On top of that, every year they hold a conference where the wealthiest people in the world and many top world government and business leaders come to talk. Its rather amazing at times to see the world I work in compared to the world I live in.

On one side I respect the work that he does and the projects he tries to do, but on the other I don't get paid nearly enough for my job working for him as I would working freelance. I think he is aware of how the working class lives, but he doesn't really get it.

I sit at this conference and hear these people talking about real-estate, hedge funds, and their investments and it has nothing to do with how it relates to the working class, only how they can make money off of it. There was one especially with Sumner Redstone, Terry Semel, and Steve Wynn talking about treating their employees well. Never once did they mention compensation, they just talked about giving em a pat on the back every now and again to make em feel good.

I think the disparity in income is quite obscene in the US and it will eventually break down. My experience has shown me that people with money want more money. Its like they can never get enough. I worked for a company where I became more and more invested the longer I worked, true socialism. I haven't worked there for 5 years and I still make money off of them. That's the road more companies need to take, where the employees benefit economically as the company does.

Kinsian or trickle-down economics just doesn't work, the rich are rich because they hold onto their money. Then they go and find the most affordable way to make their money; ie outsourcing, mechenization, finding tax loop holes.

Having been around all these wealthy people I know I will never be rich because i don't have their mentality and drive. When you meet these people you understand why they have money, its just in their personality. If you took all their money away and put them to live in a slum, they would be wealthy within a few years.

I'm sort of rambling here, but where I am going is, I also believe in working for what you earn. I don't agree with the government handing money out to people and I have issues with welfare system.

I honestly don't have an answer, I think people who amass gross amount of wealth must put into the government and society equal percentagely what a poor person does. I think once you become wealthy you must take more responsibility for the society in which you gained your wealth, which I see my employer doing.

We can't tell people not to make money, but we can stop CEO's from getting multi million dollar bonus' and severnce checks, especially after they have ruined a company.

That was really all over the place wasn't it?

[Rhinosaur]

I'm marking you down as a 40 hr work week type.

Winners drive home in the dark.

Why don't you just call him a peasant?

Lots of working people put in more than 40 hours a week, both winners and losers. It's just necessary to make ends meet for the most part. Low estimate is 30% of America averaging more than 40 hours a week working.

[Count of Montesano]

Agreed Rhinosaur - and the latest estimates show that the average American works more than even the Chinese, Japanese and South Koreans now.

My problem is this attitude that the CEO always deserves a generous package and the worker deserves little or nothing.

Sure, some CEOs who legitimately turn a business into a success (versus cooking the books, screwing customers, or cutting the workforce to the bone to make a business look good to investors on paper) or who create a new business from scratch - your Bill Gates of the world - deserve to be handsomely rewarded. But there are equally dozens of CEOs who ran thei companies into the ground and still receive a multi-million dollar golden parachute. I'm of the "captain goes down with his ship" mentality - no stellar performance, no giant bonus.

Now let's take a look at the worker shall we? Surely the Walton family, who as I pointed out in the original post make the same amount of adjusted income as JD Rockefeller used to PER PERSON, can afford to pay decent wages and healthcare benefits for their workers. Yes, I understand a CEO is more valuable than a store clerk, but that store clerk also works hard and on a grand scale is even more responsible for a company's success or failure. If you don't believe me, take a look at how poor customer service and lack of enough staff at Home Depot has caused that business to plummet.

Besides, treating your customers well can be very good for your business in the long run. Costco pays their employees a fair wage and good benefits and thrives - WalMart would not go out of business if workers were compensated fairly.

This attitude of only the person at the top matters and everyone else is expendable - an attitude I assure you I did not see so much working in Europe and Japan - is far to close to feudalism for my tastes.