The Complete EDU Guide

[Aradan]

Hm, are you sure. I get 65535 => 65535 and 65536 => 0.

[florin80]

Yes, I`m sure. I get this results:

stat_cost 3, 65534, 270, 104, 112, 432
translates into: -2

stat_cost 3, 65535, 270, 104, 112, 432
translates into: -1


stat_cost 3, 65537, 270, 104, 112, 432
translates into: 1

[Lü Bu]

I like when I get money for "buying" unit...

[Aradan]

Maybe it depends on the OS settings then?!

[florin80]

I need to make a correction. The unit I was talking about is a unit intended to fix the revolt ctd(hence its price). And the one in the picture above and all the other tests were of the unit spawned by a loyalist revolt. It happens after two turns so it was easy to check. Now, if I edit the descr_strat so that macedon has enough money to buy it normally, the price both on the recruiting line and on the info card looks fine: 65535. Oddly though, the same unit, spawned in loyalist revolts is still showing -1 as recruiting price. One next to the other. No idea why they do this because it`s the same EDU entry.

[Aradan]

RTW weirdness... No idea.

[Drewski]

@Aradan Great Guide, thanks

Firstly I have a question on Light_Spear attr.

Basically I'm involved in a "friendly" discussion at the Org, with someone who's convinced that "Light_Spear = -4 Def vs Infantry" isn't correct. (whereas I think it is).

Is it possible for you to point me to your sources for this stat? Or otherwise how this precise figure was reached?

Many Thanks

[Aradan]

Both spear and light_spear give 'various protective mechanism against cavalry', as it says in the vanilla EDU Header, so we *know* light_spear has some bonuses. That's the most confirmation we ever got from CA about this, eveyrhting else was base don personal experimentation.

Take two clone infantry units with every single stat identical (just different EDU entry names) and have them fight on an empty, flat plain, with fatigue and morale turned off, no charge, normal difficulty. The two units will be equal (the unit controlled by the AI has a random bonus that goes up to 20 percent, so the AI might be winning, say, 6 out of 10 times). Now give one unit light_spear and you'll see it will be losing the battles clearly. Then increase that unit's attack/defense by 4 and they will be on par again.

In order to test whether the bonus/penalty is applied to attack or defense, you just set up two similar battles, using a "spear" unit in one and a "light_spear" in the other. The results will be the same, but you will notice that the battles where the 'spear' unit is involved will end quite sooner, which means the bonus for spear applies to attack, while for light_spear it applies to defense.

That's it in a nutshell, though one could go into much more detail. Btw, hen I say battle I mean a series of, say, 10 custom-battles, so that your results are credible.

[Drewski]

Both spear and light_spear give 'various protective mechanism against cavalry', as it says in the vanilla EDU Header, so we *know* light_spear has some bonuses. That's the most confirmation we ever got from CA about this, eveyrhting else was base don personal experimentation.

Take two clone infantry units with every single stat identical (just different EDU entry names) and have them fight on an empty, flat plain, with fatigue and morale turned off, no charge, normal difficulty. The two units will be equal (the unit controlled by the AI has a random bonus that goes up to 20 percent, so the AI might be winning, say, 6 out of 10 times). Now give one unit light_spear and you'll see it will be losing the battles clearly. Then increase that unit's attack/defense by 4 and they will be on par again.

In order to test whether the bonus/penalty is applied to attack or defense, you just set up two similar battles, using a "spear" unit in one and a "light_spear" in the other. The results will be the same, but you will notice that the battles where the 'spear' unit is involved will end quite sooner, which means the bonus for spear applies to attack, while for light_spear it applies to defense.

That's it in a nutshell, though one could go into much more detail. Btw, hen I say battle I mean a series of, say, 10 custom-battles, so that your results are credible.

Thanks for reply...but Im slightly confused with your reasoning here

In order to test whether the bonus/penalty is applied to attack or defense, you just set up two similar battles, using a "spear" unit in one and a "light_spear" in the other. The results will be the same, but you will notice that the battles where the 'spear' unit is involved will end quite sooner, which means the bonus for spear applies to attack, while for light_spear it applies to defense.

Let me get this right...you set up two clone units. A) you keep as Infantry, B)you give attr Spear to. They clash.

Then you do the same but B) has Light_Spear attr.

The spear unit is battle 1 dies quicker than the Light_Spear in battle 2. (or Am I misunderstanding what you meant here?)

Therefore surely, "Spear" = reduction in Defence, and "Light_Spear"= reduction in Attack?

[Aradan]

In order to test whether the bonus/penalty is applied to attack or defense, you just set up two similar battles, using a "spear" unit in one and a "light_spear" in the other. The results will be the same, but you will notice that the battles where the 'light_spear' unit is involved will end quite sooner, which means the bonus for spear applies to attack, while for light_spear it applies to defense.

Fixed the above, sorry, I was in a haste when I typed it.

Here's the methodology:

Control: take two clone infantry units without light_spear attribute. Time their battle.

Test 1: give one light_spear attribute and give the other -4 attack adjustment relative to its normal attack skill. Time their battle.

Test 2: give one light_spear attribute and give the other -4 melee defense skill adjustment relative to its normal defense skill. Time that battle.

If light_spear gives -4 attack, Test 1 should be substantially longer than the Control (because both units would kill less easily now). Test 2 should be roughly the same amount of time as Control.

If light_spear gives -4 defense, Test 2 should be substantially faster than the Control (because both units can be killed more easily now). Test 1 should then be roughly the same amount of time as Control.

If test1 is slightly longer and test 2 is slightly shorter, it probably indicates that the combat penalty is split between attack and defense (-2a,-2d).

Try the above. Do not expect accuracy down to the last second, but you will notice that battles on Test 2 will be shorter, which is an indication of decreased defense.

[Drewski]

Fixed the above, sorry, I was in a haste when I typed it.

Here's the methodology:



Try the above. Do not expect accuracy down to the last second, but you will notice that battles on Test 2 will be shorter, which is an indication of decreased defense.

Yes, that makes sense now...thanks again..

I have a theory for another test, if you don't mind bearing with me...

Take same 2 unit models, but give the one to remain as a control, a massive defence, but no attack. (kind of a test "wall").Leave the other as normal. Then fight 3 types of battles against the control. 1) as Infantry, 2) as Spear 3) as Light_Spear. Time them all.

I would then expect the attr which has -4 def, to take the same time as battle 1) but the attr which has -4 attack to take much longer?

What do you think?

[Aradan]

I can't think of any reason this wouldn't work. You can try it and let us know what results you come up with.

[Drewski]

I can't think of any reason this wouldn't work. You can try it and let us know what results you come up with.

I immediately noticed one glaring problem with it....It takes forever and ever

I used 2 same skeletons and gave the control 0 Attack, 56 defence, the other 15 attack and its standard EB 28 defence, both Infantry..Both lethality standard .12....(the lethality needs to be 1.0 for testing purposes of this kind)..

Even on triple speed, each combat took an average of 8 minutes 5 secs....

I'm afraid I lost patience after 5 combats (and remarkably, the Zero attack control unit actually won the 4th combat)

Maybe try the exercise again, with a full lethality point for the non control unit....another day when I have quite a few spare hrs...

If/When I do, I will let you know the results.

The main argument over at the org, was that the person I was arguing with, said their tests had shown that when a Unit was given "Spear" it killed quicker and died quick. Wheras when same unit was given "Light_Spear", it killed slowly and died slowly [EDIT: Both vs Unit type Infantry]...which seems a little counter-intuitive to your EDU guide findings.

However, the test reasoning you have given me is completely sound, and I feel no need to redo your experimentation just for the sake of it. If those are the results you have, then the logic stands.

Many thanks again, for taking the time to confer with me on this...

[Mediolanicus]

Hi,

I have question about the can_swim attribute.

I've modified a mod (EB) for RTW to play with BI. Everything works like charm, except for "can_swim". Although it shows up in the unit description it has no effect on the battle map. No unit can swim.

Does anyone know what I'm missing here?

Thank you.


Edit: It does work in custom battles though:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

But why doesn't it work in my campaign? Or is can_swim the only EDU change that isn't save game compatible. Edit2: Nope, new campaign makes no difference.

[Aradan]

Are you using "arcade" style battles in the campaign?

[Mediolanicus]

I've got it!

I forgot to change "campaign imperial_campaign" into "campaign barbarian_invasion" in descr_strat.

Strange that this only effects can_swim and that the other BI features work without changing that.

[Kylan271]

Oh I am confused,so you can use Shield walls & schitrom..oh spelling,in RTW now?

Aradan what happens with javelin mount affects&elephants,ie skirmish javelin get bonus vs elephants but are penalised on horseback against them. Should not the penalty only apply to melee with elephants not ranged attacks?

The spear discussions are very interesting,I have to alter data to balance things in game.

Power Attack,is that a BI exclusive or usable in RTW vanilla?

Terrain Effects,I use Snow to Heat proportional,ie if you have +5 snow bonus,then heat is -5 etc that is cold clmate troops are good in snow but very poor in tropics or desert and vica verca,is this fair?

[Aradan]

you can use Shield walls & schitrom..oh spelling,in RTW now?

No.

Aradan what happens with javelin mount affects&elephants,ie skirmish javelin get bonus vs elephants but are penalised on horseback against them. Should not the penalty only apply to melee with elephants not ranged attacks?

Mount effects apply to both primary and secondary weapons, I know it's wrong, but it's the way the engine is built.

The spear discussions are very interesting,I have to alter data to balance things in game.

Power Attack,is that a BI exclusive or usable in RTW vanilla?

I think it also works in RTW 1.5.

Terrain Effects,I use Snow to Heat proportional,ie if you have +5 snow bonus,then heat is -5 etc that is cold clmate troops are good in snow but very poor in tropics or desert and vica verca,is this fair?

Not really, they are not the same thing, I mostly use stat_heat to simulate fatigue (heavy armour -> big stat, high-level training -> low stat)

[Kylan271]

Thanks for the reply. Yes I was worried about the javelins&mount effects vs elephants,CA is lazy..heh.

As for heat effects I was confused snow bonus(terrain)is not paired to heat,ie heat/cold. CA has strange ways of doing things.

As for Spear,spear_bonus_x (BI only),is seen in Lusted's TE Gold i use,so I am confused,as this uses RTW vanilla base.So how would it work?

[Aradan]

The spear_bonus_x attribute adds x points to attack when against a mount. (works in RTW 1.5 too)