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Thread: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

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    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    In the Western world, particularly America, the notions of capitalism and democracy seem to go hand in hand. Even when America established a democracy in Iraq, one of its first acts was to give it the economic shock treatment and privatise almost everything in sight. In retrospect that was arguably one of many very, very bad moves for the country.

    But whatever the rights and wrongs of THAT, to what extent are capitalism and democracy actually meant to go together?

    Let's define our terms first of all. Capitalism, of course, is the belief in a free market society. A person's role in society is determined entirely (so the theory goes) by their own individual ability and by the needs of the market. As such, government interference should be as little as possible, so that the market is as free as possible. As one American conservative recently said, "I don't want to abolish government, I just want to make it small enough to drown it in the bath."

    Democracy on the other hand, to break the word up literally into its Greek components, requires the arche (rule) of the demos (citizen body). In modern terms this is often equated just with voting every few years for your leaders, but in essence democracy is based on the concept of the people of a certain society choosing its direction on the basis of majority will. In fact, if you go all the way back to the first recorded European democracy, Athens, the democracy pervaded many or most aspects of life - religion, property, public service, and so on. In order to deal with the inherent inequality between rich and poor, the rich were compelled by the state (and they seem to have been willing to cooperate, as it was a source of honour to do so) to perform public services such as paying for festivals, ships, soldiers and so on.

    That there is a tension between the two basic concepts of democracy and capitalism should become clear - the government is in essence the representative of the people as a whole, and yet in the capitalist system the government's influence is, ideally, reduced to its minimum, while individual interest is bolstered to its maximum.

    In fact, this tension has been borne out by recent examples. Well, this example comes from 1999, a few years ago now, but the principles involved are just the same as today. You may have heard of something called the 'Multilateral Agreement on Investment', which was pushed in the WTO but fell through, largely because the public found out about it (the negotiations had of course been kept secret, but someone leaked). Well people in power tried time and again, rather inexplicably, to resurrect it. In an 1999 article by George Monbiot on the European Round Table of Industrialists (the ERT), this was discussed:

    ...Since 1995, the European Commission, pressed by the ERT and other trade bodies, has quietly been preparing for a single market with the United States.

    The Transatlantic Economic Partnership is a slower and subtler creature than the World Trade Organisation or the MAI. One by one it aims to pull down the “regulatory barriers” impeding the free exchange of goods and services between Europe and America. What this will mean in practice is that once a product has been approved in one part of the new trading bloc, it must be accepted everywhere. If the US government, for example, decides that injecting cattle with growth hormones is safe, Europe will have to adopt that as its regulatory standard.

    The masterplan is now falling into place. A greatly expanded Europe will form part of a single trading bloc with the US, Canada and Mexico, whose markets have already been integrated by means of the North American Free Trade Agreement, or Nafta. Nafta will grow to engulf all the Americas and the Caribbean. The senate has already passed a bill (the Africa Growth and Opportunity Act) forcing African countries to accept Nafta terms of trade. Russia and most of Asia are being dragged into line by the International Monetary Fund.

    Before long, in other words, only a minority of nations will lie outside a legally harmonised neoliberal world order, and they will swiftly find themselves obliged to join. By the time the world trade agreement is ready to be re-negotiated, it will be irrelevant, for the WTO’s job will already have been done. The world will consist of a single deregulated market, controlled by multinational companies, in which no robust law intended to protect the environment or human rights will be allowed to survive.

    As the previous failures to impose such plans have shown, schemes like this can survive only in the dark: exposure makes them shrivel and die. If this new global masterplan is to be thwarted, we must drag it into the light.
    Now, we should just be considering the principles here. In such an international agreement, any barrier to profit that exists in one country but not another must be removed. So, to take an extreme example, say that the (democratically elected) government of Country A passes a law that says that slavery is illegal, but the government of Country B legalises slavery. Companies from Country B argue that Country A's law impedes their ability to earn profit, because they must pay their workforces. Hence an international tribunal, meeting in secret, overturns a law passed democratically by Country A. Now you see the tension.

    That tension is reflected in other areas as well. At the moment the British public services are gripped by the PFI - the Private Finance Initiative. Secrecy has become its hallmark, since any requests for information are met with the chilly response: "It's commercially confidential." The PFI involves public services, i.e. services that are owned by and run for the democratic electorate. So how is secrecy conducive to democracy?

    Of course, not even ancient Athens lacked capitalism. There was a lot of it about back then. But where should we draw the line between capitalism and democracy?

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    Adrian's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    thats a tricky one well basically capitalism should free the market 4 any one to invest thats on theory but lets look at it practical you open a medium business can you compete with the mamut companies no you cant you cant produce or sell at the price they are so basically y think competition is between the big players the medium and small business have the keep up with them many will be run in to the ground. look at mi country romania once we joined the eu the big boys started to monopolize the market and small and medium business went in to the ground. so basically its good if you have a sheet load of money to invest but if you are a normal guy not a millionaire you got to get a job . so it creates more jobs in a way but the small guys get raped ...
    Last edited by Adrian; July 20, 2007 at 09:36 AM.
    .........


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    Default Re: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    Democracy tends toward mob rule and is easily manipulated by demagogues. Over time in a democracy populist politicians and big business interests slowly strangle the capitalist system with increasing levels of red tape and taxation. The dynamism of a free society is eventually destroyed, and the economy goes into stagnation or outright chaos.

    Generally speaking, I am opposed to democracy because it threatens capitalism.





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    STReetSamurai's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    An example of what you get when you combine pure capitalism and democracy is what we had during the industrial revolution. Massive companies, porducts being pumped out very cheaply, cities going up everywhere, workers being **** canned left and right, beaten, taken advantage of...

    America is not a democracy/capitalist state, its more democracy/capitalist with socialist elements.

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    Default Re: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daovonnaex View Post
    Generally speaking, I am opposed to democracy because it threatens capitalism.
    And you said I hate freedom!?

    I think they're compatible only under certain(unrealistic/ideal) circumstances. If the culture* of the capitalist country was to totally change, that society might be a model to use for other nations.

    *What I mean by changing the culture is that as opposed to, using the US as an example, being a country founded on stark individualism if it would have been one based on communalism(Strong devotion to the interests of one's own minority or ethnic group rather than those of society as a whole.) then possibly a nationwide communal(Of, belonging to, or shared by the people of a community; public.) attitude would have developed instead of a nationwide me first attitude. In this ideal society 'the rich' wouldn't be the parasites who only think of profit at the expense of the less fortunate. They would be the venerated class which gave back to the community, much like in the example of Athens you used. If that was the culture from the beginning there might not even be a need for state compulsion of the wealthy, because it(philanthropy) would be part of the culture.

    Unfortunately, that is not the world we live in. IMO, I don't think it's wise to create a hungry class of people that doesn't feel apart of the society. There are too many historical examples of really poor people destroying the establisment. Usually at the behest of the greedy people just below the elites.

    Looking at it, capitalism creates a barbaric and savage mentality: What's mine is mine and I'll destroy whoever tries to take it. Yet, it's supposed to be a sign of civilization.

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    Default Re: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    Quote Originally Posted by STReetSamurai View Post
    America is not a democracy/capitalist state, its more democracy/capitalist with socialist elements.
    Socialist elements? USA has socialist elements?
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    Woad-Warrier's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    America tried to make Iraq a mini-america? Lol no wonder they're getting no where.

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    Marcus_Suecius's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    Quote Originally Posted by jimkatalanos View Post
    Socialist elements? USA has socialist elements?
    The very limited welfare system
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    Freddie's Avatar The Voice of Reason
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    Default Re: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    Wasn’t there a thread like this a few months ago titled - ‘Democracy and Capitalism: Strange bedfellows’?

    I don’t think compatibility here is an issue, more over the two ideologies tend to counter balance the other, capitalism encourages governments not to swamp a country with mountains of legislation and government beauocracy and democracy stops capitalism from becoming to powerful to a point where the public can be abused by powerful companies. Of course there are exceptions to both of these of rules.

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    Default Re: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woad-Warrier View Post
    America tried to make Iraq a mini-america? Lol no wonder they're getting no where.
    The US hasn't tried to make Iraq into another America, more like a Milton Friedman wet dream.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Debs
    The Republican and Democratic parties, or, to be more exact, the Republican-Democratic party, represent the capitalist class in the class struggle. They are the political wings of the capitalist system and such differences as arise between them relate to spoils and not to principles.

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    Woad-Warrier's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    Someone just said they were making Iraq another capitalized country. Privatizing everything like America.

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    Default Re: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    They are trying to make it more free market than America currently is. It's like a big experiment in Neo Lib economy going on there. Not useful for stabilizing the country, obviously.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Debs
    The Republican and Democratic parties, or, to be more exact, the Republican-Democratic party, represent the capitalist class in the class struggle. They are the political wings of the capitalist system and such differences as arise between them relate to spoils and not to principles.

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    Default Re: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    Democracy and capitalism will both, when left to extremes, destroy the country they're implemented in.
    However, take both, and you've successfully tempered them to the point where they are manageable (representative democracy and "third way" economics, although I think the market should be less regulated than it is presently in the US).





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    Default Re: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    I've always thought about this, and wondered if modern capitalism can work with democracy today.. I guess it can, as they were both designed to be used as counter-weights to one another, a system of checks and balances to make sure one doesn't get too much of an upper hand over the other.

    But then again, to bypass that, you just gotta change the perception of what is the upper hand, what is unfair, and get people to think that "it's never been better", when really it has been and the minds of the few have managed to change the minds of the many.
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    Default Re: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    capitalism is compatible with itself and explotation.
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    sephodwyrm's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    Yes the US has socialist elements:
    - you guys still have welfare...though its going
    - public schooling
    - minimum wage
    - child labor laws

    If these laws are taken out, the ones cheering would be capitalists, not democrats.
    Now China is a modern example of un-restrained capitalism.
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    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    Capitalism and Democracy are opposites in several ways:

    Capitalism looks after the interests of individuals.
    Democracy looks after the interests of the masses.

    Capitalism empowers the rich over the poor.
    Democracy given equal power to all people.

    But opposites aren't always incompatible, sometimes they make for a good mix.



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    Count of Montesano's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    Democracy and capitalism are not inherently incompatible - both are the "best" systems ever created for appealing to the best in humanity (ambition, sense of civic pride, creativity, etc) and harnessing the worst aspects of the human condition for the greater good. Yes it may seem capitalism is based on law of the jungle, but earlier types of economies like feudalism were far, far worse. Communism actually turned out to not be very good at promoting social goods or stopping social ills - it allowed tyrants to grab absolute power while at the same time blunted the incentive for people to better themselves and their families. Well, at least the trains mostly ran on time and drug abuse was low in Mao's China where opium addiction equaled death.

    However, I firmly believe that there can be extremes of capitalism as there can be extremes of democracy. The French Reign of Terror is democracy taken to an extreme - mob rule and mass murder in the name of liberty and egality. Of course the Gilded Age is a great example of capitalism taken to an extreme - a few rich and mass numbers of poor who suffered short and brutish lives before ending up on somebody's supper table after falling into the sausage grinder.

    The key to controling both is rule of law - both govt and business leaders need to be held accountable to the public. Corporations cannot be treated on one hand as private persons when it benefits them (ie, keeping their dirty little secrets closed in the name of privacy) and as faceless public entities when things go bad. And sovereign nations need to have control over what happens within their own borders, the WTO be damned. I know many Americans think that government regulation is always a bad thing, and I do sympathize with the fact that beuaucracy can be a serious pain. But the government needs to be able to go after corporations that cheat, steal, and injure or kill others with just as much vigilance as police go after individual bank robbers or murderers.

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    Default Re: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    Quote Originally Posted by morteduzionism View Post
    And you said I hate freedom!?
    Capitalism is freedom, doof

    not gonna bother responding to the rest of your psot right now (durnk)





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    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Capitalism and Democracy - Are they Compatible?

    Therer is such a thing as too much freedom when a company can freeley polute the ground water, when a man can freeley coerce a child into having sex with him, when all a person does is make money through a system based soley on luck, when a company turns in workers into anything but a slave through contract that is when there is too much freedom.
    according to exarch I am like
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

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