Unit proposals

[DimeBagHo]

...and the fact that "nobody knows" isnt good enough. How about Polybius and archaelogical findings?

There's a collection of the historical sources on Hypaspists in the XGM readme, so you can take a look for yourself if you feel inclined. Unfortunately we don't have much to work with. Very little Greek literature has survived from the hellenistic period (the period between Alexander and the ascendancy of Rome) and the later Roman stuff provides only a sketchy (and often inconsistent) picture.

There is some surviving imagery (sculpture, pottery, mosaics) but it's typically hard to tell what you are looking at with that stuff. Sometimes soldiers are portrayed with deliberately archaic equipment, because the aim of the artist was to evoke historic or mythical figures, and the figures never come with labels anyway. So even if we had a perfect model of a typical hypaspist in 280 BC we wouldn't know.

Personally I always find it amazing that we know *anything* about what was going on 2300 years ago.

[Zarax]

I agree with you completely Zarax, except that the Ptolemies could afford some re visitation to their roster... I find their lack of Thuro's/Thorak's is not made up by the fairly distant Nubian AOR and Post-Marian Agema Axemen (at least I think their PM). Something akin to the Galatian Klerouch would be a good implementation.... An idea might be to make a military colony building, at perhaps the Minor or Large City level, that could require the 3rd or 4th, respecively, level barracks, and would enable their recruitment. Make it costly, and a long time to build, and it could more accurately reflect the Ptolemaics difficulty in getting non-native manpower. Plus its historical, look at EB's Ptoly roster...

The comment about TSE's roster is unfounded, they have one of the richest rosters in the game!

Well, this has been proposed ages ago for XGM in the Post Marian Project thread.
Military colonies and all have been implemented in XC, Dime just needs to grab them if he wishes.

[Lycurgus the Lawgiver]

Not trying to criticise, it's getting there.

I do feel that you're criticising, because you're definitely not giving any constructive feedback.
All you do is point out, which things you think are wrong or not good enough.
I don't see you coming up with any solutions whatsoever.

With your in-game historical newsletter item you could for example find some facts etc. that you think would be good to be implemented.
I must admit that this is a feature request thread, but you're taking it very far.

As someone already said this is a one man's mod. I do think that DMB has a life to get back to once in a while. And I don't have to remind you that you're playing this mod for free.
So a little more constructive thinking and effort wouldn't be misplaced.

If you see something that you think is wrong, YOU can do some research and present your (scientific) findings to the person responsible. Or in my case, fixing some minor typo's and such, you can do it on your own.

~Lycurgus

[_Lacedaemonian_]

IMHO thyreophoroi/macedonian hypaspists/thorakitai/bactrian agema hoplites/seleucid legionaires are in one way or another realistic representations of the units that needed to guard the right of the hellenistic phalanx and perform operations that the less mobile phalanx was incapable of,such as border patrol,castle storming etc.
Without doubt the hypaspists are the most mysterious units of the Macedonian army. Historians still lack clues about what they exactly looked like and how they were armed. Adding to the controversy are the various names attached to them: Guards, Shield-Bearers and, after the invasion of India, Silver Shields (or argyraspids; their origin is equally disputed). What is certain is that the hypaspists were outstanding infantry troops who were capable of performing a wide range of tasks. During battles they served in close combat as an extension of the phalanx, protecting its right flank, and they were also well equipped for skirmishing, fast marches, storming walls and rapid advances supporting the cavalry.

Common sense indicates the hypaspists must have been, in one way or another, a flexible and mobile adaption of the original Greek hoplite. Philip had developed the hypaspists from his original body of Foot Guards. When Alexander crossed into Asia the hypaspists numbered 3,000 men divided in three divisions, one of which was the élite unit, the Royal Foot Guards or agema. This agema unit had the same role as its cavalry counterpart.

(Before the invasion of India Alexander is said to have added gold and silver to the armor of his troops; probably during this time the name Silver Shields came into being. It may have been that the hypaspists adopted this new name, or that the argyraspids were veteran units recruited from both hypaspist and phalanx battalions. What is practically for sure is that the Silver Shields were 3,000 seasoned warriors, boasting an undefeated record under Alexander. After Alexander's death they were hardly controllable: they betrayed their general Eumenes and killed their commander Antigenes by burning him alive. In the end they were dispatched to distant Arachosia where the local satrap had secret orders to wear them out.)

note:when I say common sense I mean this---->try to use the seleucid phalanx unprotected against the various,more mobile units of the Eastern factions and you'll surely lose.

[Spartan198]

Personally I always find it amazing that we know *anything* about what was going on 2300 years ago.

I hear that.

[TM Is Back]

How about silver shield hypaspists for the Seleucids, they should have spears, short ones.

Im sure Alexander left many veteran silver shields and elite pikemen after he died, Seleucid controlled them.

And more pikemen for seleucids, egypt, macedonia? They seem to have a limited roster. Seleucids and egypt feel particularly empty, but with a few more hypaspists and pikemen, I think it'll be really good.

You have to be kidding me. Seleucid Empire and The Ptolomaic Empire have an empty roster? The AOR system provides so much, you simply alomst have to many units

I agree that Hypaspists are elite, mobile and athletic hoplite-ish, but I remembered that they had spears as primary weapon and sword as secondary. Exclude the sword, since you can't have both for RTW when they arent in phalanx. They were the mobile infantry to support the pikemen who were slow. They were the elite special forces, they were awesome .

And the 2-handed pike animation mod, the one that EB uses too.

Eh.... our Hypastists are wonderfull units already... why make them less?

That's my opinion. I have only played greek factions. Barbarian and Roman factiosn seem satisfyingly full of units, although I have only played them once or twice.

I hope in every version, more units are added equally for each faction, barbarian, greek, roman and eastern.

More units? IIRC, there can only be more units added by excluding other units. Something to do with the files. Dime, the rosters are beautiful, just do your thing

OFF TOPIC:
@Spartan
Yes it feels that XGM has fewer factions and depth,
due to the inconsistent maps for faction selection screen

May I remind you that this mod wants to keep a certain ammount vannila feeling in the game?

lack of custom menu skins

You want to make them?

3 rebel factions (although unnecessary IMO)

They are not unnecesssry. They are wonderful and form a very important part of the XGM gameplay.

No unique Historical information (newsletter) every couple of years in the game, unlike EB (sorry to compare, but that was a good feature).

If you want Historical information other then the ones given, there is always www.google.com

Not really historically in depth

Historically enough, for remember XGM keeps vannila feeling in the game.

Lack of units, etc...

That is bull-. The unit system is perfect.

Not trying to criticise, it's getting there.

Not criticising? I would think you are.



Dime, XGM is a gift. A beautiful gift.

[_Lacedaemonian_]

And a most stable one too.I haven't had a crash in ages!!

[Spartan198]

And a most stable one too.I haven't had a crash in ages!!

Yeah, same here. On the rare occasions that someone does, Dime usually releases a patch or fixed version almost immediately.

XGM is second to none in the customer service department.

[Pelopidas_Of_Thebes]

You have to be kidding me. Seleucid Empire and The Ptolomaic Empire have an empty roster? The AOR system provides so much, you simply alomst have to many units



Eh.... our Hypastists are wonderfull units already... why make them less?



More units? IIRC, there can only be more units added by excluding other units. Something to do with the files. Dime, the rosters are beautiful, just do your thing



May I remind you that this mod wants to keep a certain ammount vannila feeling in the game?


You want to make them?


They are not unnecesssry. They are wonderful and form a very important part of the XGM gameplay.


If you want Historical information other then the ones given, there is always www.google.com


Historically enough, for remember XGM keeps vannila feeling in the game.


That is bull-. The unit system is perfect.


Not criticising? I would think you are.



Dime, XGM is a gift. A beautiful gift.

Yeh, I think I went a bit too far in my comments . XGM is still awesome, IMO.

[Pelopidas_Of_Thebes]

IMHO thyreophoroi/macedonian hypaspists/thorakitai/bactrian agema hoplites/seleucid legionaires are in one way or another realistic representations of the units that needed to guard the right of the hellenistic phalanx and perform operations that the less mobile phalanx was incapable of,such as border patrol,castle storming etc.
Without doubt the hypaspists are the most mysterious units of the Macedonian army. Historians still lack clues about what they exactly looked like and how they were armed. Adding to the controversy are the various names attached to them: Guards, Shield-Bearers and, after the invasion of India, Silver Shields (or argyraspids; their origin is equally disputed). What is certain is that the hypaspists were outstanding infantry troops who were capable of performing a wide range of tasks. During battles they served in close combat as an extension of the phalanx, protecting its right flank, and they were also well equipped for skirmishing, fast marches, storming walls and rapid advances supporting the cavalry.

Common sense indicates the hypaspists must have been, in one way or another, a flexible and mobile adaption of the original Greek hoplite. Philip had developed the hypaspists from his original body of Foot Guards. When Alexander crossed into Asia the hypaspists numbered 3,000 men divided in three divisions, one of which was the élite unit, the Royal Foot Guards or agema. This agema unit had the same role as its cavalry counterpart.

(Before the invasion of India Alexander is said to have added gold and silver to the armor of his troops; probably during this time the name Silver Shields came into being. It may have been that the hypaspists adopted this new name, or that the argyraspids were veteran units recruited from both hypaspist and phalanx battalions. What is practically for sure is that the Silver Shields were 3,000 seasoned warriors, boasting an undefeated record under Alexander. After Alexander's death they were hardly controllable: they betrayed their general Eumenes and killed their commander Antigenes by burning him alive. In the end they were dispatched to distant Arachosia where the local satrap had secret orders to wear them out.)

note:when I say common sense I mean this---->try to use the seleucid phalanx unprotected against the various,more mobile units of the Eastern factions and you'll surely lose.

Yes, historians know little of how hypaspists were specifically. Sure, Polybius, Diodorus and Justin describe a bit about them. One suggestion by Peter Connoly, said that they used bows, swords and spears. Graham Phillips percieved them in a similar way, except he compared them to the Nazi SS. He quoted that Hitler got the idea from Alexander the Great's Hypaspists. They were an elite light infantry, special forces, skirmishers, special police, etc... They had many purposes. One could justify that they were the closest things to hoplites in the hellenistic era. They were hoplites, but they were like a flexible and more elite form of hoplites.

You could go on in much more depth on the history of hypaspists, and furthormore justifying it, but it would be pointless.

[Zarax]

You can think about it this way: all the other roles have been filled in the roster, so hypaspists plays the assault infantry and are equipped for that.

[silentsam74]

You can think about it this way: all the other roles have been filled in the roster, so hypaspists plays the assault infantry and are equipped for that.

IOW, hypaspists can pretty much do anything. So, they were placed in most useful spot they can occupy in XGM's unit roster.

[Pelopidas_Of_Thebes]

Is it me or we just repeating the same thing about hypaspists? Moving on, or delete our posts.

[Maraxus]

1) Kardake Archer (imitation immortal?)
2) Armenia
3) Available during the entire game.
4) Elite
5) Same as Kardake spearmen only minus the shield and add a bow.
6) same as Kardake swordsmen.
7) The only historical reference is that this unit would be a throwback to the Persian immortals of the Persian Empire.
8) Armenia still needs some of its own unique units, right now they are a toned down version of Pontus. I have been looking over the DMB and with Zarax's officer trick (the multiple skeleton trick) the east_elephant_archer could be reskined/remodeled to resemble the Kardakes and given a Spear as a secondary weapon. The secondary weapon wont appear on the elephant rider but will appear on an infantry version of the unit. Or a new DMB entry could be made, I just like finding ways to cheat the DMB as much as possible.

Of course any additional unique Armenian units would be great!

[Zarax]

Sounds good.
BTW, you've got internal access in XC Maraxus, it would be nice if you pop in sometimes.

Also, as master modeler you've got the power to make this kind of stuff true

[Maraxus]

I know I have access to XC but I'm ignorant of how to take advantage of it. Rest assured I want to start fiddling around with units, its only a matter of time till I'm back in action.

[Zarax]

Err, it works exactly like in DTW, you've got access to the dev board, CV can give you SNV too

[The Hedge Knight]

1) Corinthian Hoplite
2) Greece
3) Battle of Plataea, corinthian war
4) status: elite hoplite, perhaps slighly less powerful than Athenian.
5) equipment Corinthoan, good KlA model...
6) corinth
7)Acounts Xenophon's accounts of the corinthian war
8) Other major states have these why not corinth, they were widely recorded in varios wars and it would seem wrong to ignore them.

[TM Is Back]

Another elite Hoplite? There is no need for that.

[magraev]

1) Unit name: Bactria Agema Pikemen
2) AOR or faction: Bactria (the faction) Recruitable from the highest lvl barracks - could be limited to the city of Bactria maybe
3) when the unit appeared or was in main use: No idea
4) status (regular/elite): Elite
5) equipment (armour, weapon and shield): Same as foot companions
6) historical area from where the unit was recruited: No idea
7) historical sources that mentions the use of the unit (EB unit roster is also accepted): No idea
8) other notes: I can see that my proposal is not well based in history, but I feel it would be good from a gameplay perspective. Seleucia, Egypt, Pontus, Greece and Macedon all have an elite phalanx-unit, and I believe that Bactria should too, since they are from the same tradition. Maybe the same stats as foot compagnions, maybe a bit less armor. It would make bactria more interesting in the late game.

And by the way I second Josst's suggestion above - gotta love the variety