Unit proposals

[Kara Kolyo]

will the sacred band remain only in Corinth or be switche to Thebes or all hellenic regions? BTW any plans about replacing the seleucid legionaries? i usualy give them the mac hypaspists and make the legions untrainable, but...

[GREGORIOS TG]

Hey dime whats the perioci hoplite unit? Are they the ones who have those Phalangites helmets in the Alexander 2004 film?

[DimeBagHo]

GREGORIOS TG: The perioici were free non-citizens from Sparta and the area around Sparta. Many of them would have been former citizens, or descendants of former citizens, who had lost their citizenship due to lack of money. They didn't go through the agoge, but they were still well trained.

Kara Kolyo: I will probably make the Sacred Band trainable everywhere. Now that huge cities arise later, and in fewer regions, I don't see the same need to limit recruitment. Replacements for the Seleucid and Eastern Legionaries are still on the to-do list.

[hacon]

I think your mixing the Perioici with the Hypomeiones. The Hypomeines were Spartans who had lost their citizenship through acts of cowardice or more frequently due to their inability to pay their agoge dues. In the XGM period more and more land went into fewer and fewer hands so much so that by the middle of the 3rd century there were only around 700 citizens of which 100 were rich.
It is said that women owned 40% of the land. Ephraim David in his work "Sparta between Empir and Revolution" suggests tat there were 1800 to 2000 of this disenfranchised class.
The Perioici were as you state not Spartan citizens though they were citizens of their own polis. I think you have to go back to the 8th century to find the last time when members of an increasing Spartan population gave up Spartan citizenship to move to periocic towns such as Geronthrai.
Many of them were rich enough to afford their own panoply and had time to train.
As the number of homoioi declined they made up the bulk of the Lacedaemonian army. There are some historians who beleive that ifrom the late 5th century they would have been brigaded with the Spartan citizen Mora.

[Zarax]

I'm still not enthusiastic about introducing yet another spartan unit, I really think two are enough unless we want a pre-phalanx spartan hoplite to be used before the reforms...

[Unknown Soldier]

How about an Iberian special unit - javelin hurling cavalry from the province the circle maneauver is named after - Cantabrian light cavalry.

Would be similar maybe to thracian light cavalry in stats and only recruitable in northern Spain via hidden resource mechanism.

Unless there already is one?

[Unknown Soldier]

Were the Spartans not the last GCS to adopt the pike and thus maybe should have a hoplite unit pre reform and then pikes post reform recruitable only in Sparta?

[Zarax]

Yes, spanish light cavalry should be similar to thracian light one with maybe slightly better defence but no AP...

[brandbll]

"I'm still not enthusiastic about introducing yet another spartan unit, I really think two are enough unless we want a pre-phalanx spartan hoplite to be used before the reforms..."

I like that idea. This is afterall the Greek expansion so might as well get the Greeks more involved.

[Zarax]

Due to the recent requests for improvement of gallic roster I'm gonna spit a few links that should help for inspiration:

http://www.europabarbarorum.com/fact...dui_units.html

Mori Gaesum
"The Mori Gaesum ("Sea Of Spears") is an elite mercenary unit of Helvetii origin. The Helvetii tribes are more known for their fierceness than their unity. As such, much of the great warriors of each tribe sell their services to the highest bidders. Some of these men are used to face Hellenic armies and, consequently, have incorporated some of their enemy's tactics in to their own.

They use the familiar phalanx tactic to engage and tire the enemies before switching to their sword and shield to finish them off. This method, together with their well known fierceness and skill, make them a frightening opponent for any enemy army.

Though not the equal of the Greeks or Macedonians in phalanx warfare, the Mori Gaesum can compensate that with superior swordsmanship, aggressiveness and experience."

I'd say this would be an interesting unit available to gauls if they conquer a greek settlement.

http://www.europabarbarorum.com/fact...rni_units.html

Arjos

"The Arverni ("Superior Ones", home to the famous Vercingetorix) are a large powerful tribe who have become extremely wealthy through trade with the Mediterranean and 'exploitation' of the trade routes North. As such, the Arverni have a large body of Nobles afforded the time and wealth to prepare for battle.

The Arjos ("Nobles") sport the finest equipment available and train daily in its use. Due to their wealth and status they tend not to be as concerned with feats of valor, but instead exhibit greater tenacity in battle.

Though not the equal of the Greeks or Macedonians, the Arjos fight well in phalanx and prove themselves a sturdy force in any battle line."

Aka Gallic noble spearmen.

http://www.europabarbarorum.com/fact...roi_units.html


Galatikoi Kuarothoroi

"The Kuarothoroi were superb Galatian warriors that often fought for Pontos and Pergamum. Kuarothoroi are elite heavy spearmen recruited from among the Galatian tribes near the Pontic border. They form the vanguard of the shock infantry of both nations, and are well able to give a good account of themselves. They are armed and armoured to the teeth and are well able to serve as a disciplined and nearly fanatic shock infantry. They carry long spears and wield large shields which make them ideal flankers in the situation that they are deployed against phalanx units. Other than this, Kuarothoroi are well able to attack and defend against various types of soldiers, putting them among the most versatile heavy infantry. They are particularly deadly against cavalry. A smart commander will place these armoured troops where the battle is likely to be the hardest fought.

Historically, Kuarothoroi were among the most 'Hellenized' of the Galatian warrior class and many took Greek or Persian wives and settled in new homelands on rich estates won by their superb military service to either nation. Their name derived from the Greek name kouros-kouretes which means young men of fighting age and therefore warriors."

aka Galatian Nobles

Massiliotes Hoplitai (Massilian Medium Hoplites)

"Massila is a city in an interesting position. It is a Greek city, but with a substantial Celtic population and relations with neighboring Celtic tribes. Their soldiers have adjusted themselves with some Celtic gear to make them of greater use in a close melee if the phalanx is abandonned. They make use of a superior Celtic longsword in close quarters, able to handle themselves better in such situations compared to others with lesser weapons.

Historically, Massila was home to a substantial Greco-Celt population who were attracted to the temple of Herakles there. The inhabitants of Massila remained largely Greek in culture, but trading, intermarrying, and fighting with nearby Celtic tribes led to crossovers in the equipment carried by each side. The soldiers of Massila, for example, began using Celtic-style longswords and occassionally other pieces of equipment. They fought, otherwise, in a manner more typical of Hellenic soldiers."

We could have them armoured in chain mail and have a celto-hellenic hoplite.

Carnute Cingetos

"The Carnute Cingetos (Kin-jet-os; "Marching Ones") are the warriors of the Carnutes, 'druidic' warriors from Aulercia. Their skill is tremendous, as is their bravery. They are not plentiful, they are expensive, and of small number. However, their inspiring appearance, a product of their fine armor, with horned helmets, urges on their fellows, and their skill in combat makes them useful against other heavy infantry. They are disciplined, and useful for numerous battlefield roles; able to fill in for a few times their own number if needed, making them a fine reserve as well as exemplerary shock troops.

Historically, the Carnutes were devoted followers of the horned god, Cernunnos. Their bravery would be unquestionable, and skill at arms most surely superb. They would be armed and outfitted in the best equipment available. They were also charged with defending the "Great Gallic Council" where Celts tried to solve their internal grievances diplomatically; a job they likely took with great severity and pride. They defend the 'legal' rulers of Gaul, the Aedui, and were sworn enemies of their opposition; as such, in no case would they have been employed by the most dissident enemies of the Aedui, the Arverni alliance."

In case we want to have an inspiring unit for the gauls, I'd say both the eagle and chanting abilities would make them useful and interesting to have in small numbers.

[Zarax]

And this is for Epirote fans:

http://www.europabarbarorum.com/fact...ros_units.html

Chaeonion Agema (Epeirote Elite Phalanx)

"The Chaonion Agema are the infantry elite in the Epeirotes army. They are the elite phalangite infantry, and if phalangites are simply capable of holding a line, these soldiers are more than capable. They are armed with long pikes to keep the enemy at a distance, but should the enemy get too close, they are more competent than most phalangitai with their short swords. They should be deployed where the fighting will be hardest or the line will be most vulnerable, because they are less likely to turn and run when things get too hot than other infantry. A good phalanx commander should always remember that a phalanx' flank is always weak.

Alexandros of Epeiros may have adopted phalagitai from Phillipos and his cousin, Megas Alexandros, but the tradition of infantry such as the Hypaspistai, Argyraspides, or Hetairoi were not available to the Epeirotes, who independently created their own elite forces. The Chaioniai Agemata are elite pikemen comparable the Argyraspidai."

It's worth of note that this guys were quite heavily armoured, having scale mail.

Hippeis Tarantinoi (Tarantine Elite Cavalry)

"Hippeis Tarantinoi are a superb elite cavalry that long ago made their home city of Taras, on the southern coast of Italia, famous for its own modest equestrian tradition. They wear light, high quality linen armor and charge into combat with a curved kopis blade and several javelins to weaken enemies for their charge or sustained melee fighting. In appearance and style they are a distinct, traditional Hellenic light cavalry, but fight with far more skill then their less recognizable predecessors from Hellas itself. As a force, they can be relied upon in any situation to perform as missile cavalry or as melee troops, providing that they do not get bogged down in the thick of battle.

Historically, the Hippeis Tarantinoi were the elite cavalry force of Taras, an old foundation of Sparta on the southern coast of Italia. They were fairly unique among the various cavalries produced in the Hellenic tradition, as outside of the successors of Megas Alexandros, most such states were never recognized for the maintainance of an effective cavalry force - outside of Thessalonika. With them to form an effective compliment to their less impressive citizen infantry, Taras and the cities and Hellenes under its authority were able to hold the Lukanoi and Bruttiai at bay for many years, and were eventually used to some effect in the Epeirote army fashioned by Pyyrhos."

Good AOR for southern Italy, basically equivalent to eastern heavy cav.

The only other historical fact worth of note is that the Epirotes were the only faction able to breed indian elephants at home, meaning that they would have access to them in their capital.

[christof139]

Tarantine Cavalry were Light Cavalry, and not considered as Heavy Cavalry by anyone. They are credited with the introduction of the use of a shield by cavalry in the Hellenistic states. That is, before Phyrus used the Tarantine Cav. in Italy, the shield was not used by Greek cavalry, and after Phyrus saw that these Tarantine Light Cav. were effective, he and other Greek leaders and states started introducing the shield for use by their cavalry. The term 'Tarantine' was subsequently used by Hellenistic states to denote Greek Cav. that used a shield. Some Tarantine type of Cav. may have used heavier armor and some people would classify these as a type of Medium Cav. or a heavyCav., but the original Tarentine Cav. from Tarentum were Light and/or Medium Cav. types. They could and did skirmish regardless of armor worn or not worn, but though they could chrarge into melee and did, they were not shock cavalry.

There is still a question and a debate as to whether the shiled was or was not used before Phyrus' introduction of tarantine type cavalry with shield inot the Greek military, as some people claim that some Thessalian Heavy Cav. may have used shields prior to this, but it seems that Phyrus' use of shileded Tarantine Cav. began to make the use of shielded cavalry as standard in the Hellenistic militaries.

Nice units from EB and a wide variety. Things like this add a lot to a game.

Chris

[DimeBagHo]

The "Eastern Heavy Cavalry" are really a medium skirmishing cavalry, with some melee ability, so something like that would not be too much of a stretch for the Tarantines. Obviously the vanilla Greek Militia Cavalry were also intended to represent this type.

BTW, I like the idea of Gauls running around hitting people with big hammers.

[Zarax]

Ah, the goidilic units... Those were more iberian than gallic though...
Even though reshaping the druids in such a way wouldn't be half bad

[Maraxus]

1) Uttarapathian Cavalry/ Indus Mountain Cavalry
2) AOR for... India
3) 500-170 BC
4) 3rd tier AOR
5) Padded coat, Spear, Small wood shield equipment (could use Indian medium cav from Alex)
6) Northwestern India
7) DBA miniatures feature this as a variant unit for India. Scroll almost to bottom of this page:
http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/dba21a.html
8) Besides elephants India has no AOR cav of its own, plus these guys were later used by the Bactrians too.

[christof139]

The "Eastern Heavy Cavalry" are really a medium skirmishing cavalry, with some melee ability, so something like that would not be too much of a stretch for the Tarantines. Obviously the vanilla Greek Militia Cavalry were also intended to represent this type.

BTW, I like the idea of Gauls running around hitting people with big hammers.

Yeah, I see now, but don't call the Tarantine Cav. Heavy Cav., as I thought that was what you meant, but maybe you didn't mean this afterall. You could just call them Tarantine for each faction that has them and each faction's version could have different stats etc. Would be easy that way, and accurate, then you could still have all the Heavy Cav. etc units without any confusion IMHO.

Chris

[Maraxus]

1) Thracian Slingers
2) ...Thrace
3) 700 bc - 46 ad?
4) low tier, maybe 2nd or 3rd
5) Sling/pouch, dagger, pelta.
6) ...Thrace
7) DBA miniatures features slingers for Thrace
http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/I48.html
8) Thrace's main roster is looking kind of empty right now, Slinger could help represent the importation of Greek tactics into Thrace. We could use the barb slinger from BI but I would like to see only Thrace get them.

Also I have no historical justification (yet) but some sort of Thracian phalanx would be nice, maybe a chosen spear warband? We could use the Sicklemen model from Alex as a base? That helmet could be made into a Chalcidian helmet with some ear holes skinned on.

[Kara Kolyo]

@Maraxus - according to Osprey some of the thracian peltasts had long spears - something like sarrissas. They even suggest that maybe the macedonian style phalanx was influenced by thracian use of long spears. Not shue if it's justified, but atleast gives some reason for getting such unit. Maybe they should use the shorter pike and have good stats since the nobility could afford the expencive equipment for this.

[Sparta1233]

1)Bactirian Flying Devils
2)Selucid Empire
3)This unit first apeared when Alexander the Great conquered Bactria, they were some of the best calvary units Alexander used against the Indians.
4) Elite
5) Wears Greek almost Roman armour and rode camels
6) Selucia or Alexandria
7) Used in the Conquests of India, were vertually wiped out after Alexander died.Were rebuilt when Bactria gained its freedom back.
8) other notes

[Scutarii]

Wouldn't they be a Bactrian unit then?