Crusades ... Jihads

[DaVinci]

Post here your crusade and/or jihad game experiences in the Sicilian Vespers Mod campaigns.

I'm playing here Sicily on a crusade, and approached just Jerusalem by taking Antiochia, led by Bohemund of Taranto, at 1100 AD (simulating the very first crusade). Thanks to my 2 ballista's, i was able to take this castle instantly ("garrison script"), it was nearly unguarded, as the Seljuks counted with an attack on Jerusalem ... lol.

This is with the still internal SV 2.1.

[|Lorre|]

In my Early Genoese Campaign, year A.D. 1086, the Pope called for the First Crusade. Similar to the real first one, I embarked an army of genoese troops and crusader mercs, and set sail to Jerusalem. It was easy to siege the Holy City, because it was ruled by Petty States, so after 1 turn I had built two siege towers, 1 ram and 1 ladder.
I played the battle on the tactical map, to revive the spirit of the real siege, when Guglielmo Embriaco and the crusaders of Raymond de Toulouse, Godefroy de Bouillon and Boemondo di Taranto (symbolized by crusader mercs ), managed to conquer the town.

The battle was pretty easy (I was playing medium diff. campaign for mistake), but I already remembered it with pleasure.

[Drtad]

In my Late Era campaign, I have had a lack of Crusades. The AI doesn't seem in much of a crusading mood. The only crusade was launched against Vilnius by a rapidly decaying HRE which successfully took it, but nobody is actually Crusading against Islam at all. Which I guess is okay for the Late Era, by the way.

[Konstantin Alexander]

In the late era campaign, playing as Sicily, i have encountered one crusade and one Jihad so far.

One crusade was called against Tolouse in 1322, in which Genoa, Spain, England and, if im not mistaken Venice took part. (I have been busy in central Greece and Albania at this point and, sadly, could not participate) The English and Genoese were beaten, but Spain made it and it was at this point, that Spain started to slowly but steadily make progress in southern France. Right now 1350 they are besieging Angers. (It seems to me, that, sooner or later, the HRE as well as France are destined to be crushed from multiple sides. They only seldom make peace with one of their multiple enemies.)

The Jihad, which the Ilkhanate started in the 1340ies, aimed at Constaninople is a different matter though. I quickly stopped all action against the byzantine empire and even gave them Albania back, to make them sign a peace treaty, in order not to loose my buffer against the Muslim factions. (And because i hate factions being wiped out in the early stages of a campaign.) So far the Golden Horde and the Egyptians joined, but although a full stack of the Ilkhanate arrived at the walls of Constantinople, it was beaten back by a byzantine stack, which was only one quarter full. Those tenacious little greeks still had the power to win against another full stack of the golden horde a turn later and that without any reinforcements. A couple of turns later the Ilkhanate stack came back full again, from where it had fled into Asia Minor and the game repeated itself. It seems, that this time, the sarmy consisted mostly of Ghazis and Muttawi´i. (or however you spell those guys with the big clubs) Again, a much smaller byzantine force won against them and two turns later against the egyptian Jihad, which was finally arriving. The Turks seemed not to be interested in Constantnople, actually they do not take interest in invading Armenia either. They are just sitting there in western Asia Minor and smoking water-pipe. But the Jihad remains and i expect it to continue for a long time. Already in Vanilla Jihads could remain for 30 years, with the remains of Jihadarmies just loitering near their intended goal, but not doing anything.

The byzantine AI seems a bit strange though. Before the Jihad i was fighting with them over central greece and their stacks consisted of about 80% Varanian Guard, 15% Kouratoi and some Ballistas and Catapults. No heavy cavalry, no horse archers, no bowmen, nothing. Even now, when i send my spies, i see them recruiting nothing else, even when they could. That could explain, how they frequently won against the larger Jihads, so it might not be a specific weakness of the Jihad.



I have no idea about the game mechanics, that handle the chance for the pope declaring a crusade against a certain settlement or an AI faction to call for one. Still, i wondered, if there is a way of increasing the chance for historical crusades to appear in the game.

For instance take the example of the hussite wars. If it is possible to let the game check certain factors, one could actually reenact the wars, but without the calculability of other historic events, like the Mongol invasion.
Here are some ideas, that just came to my mind. The game could chekc, if.....
a) the date is correct (1st hussite crusade=1420; 2nd=1421; 3rd=1422; 4th=1427; 5th=1431)
b) who the owner of Bohemia/Prague is
c) if this owner has less than x influence with the pope
d) If those who are at war with the owner of Prague have more than x influence with the pope

And if the factors lead to a crusade against Prague/the Hussites, adding a note, like those of historic events, would be the icing on the cake of course.

[SicilianVespers]

@Davinci
We should post a pic with FOW off, so they can see the new starting positions.

@Lorre
In 2.1 early, the Seljuks own all the Middle East except Arabia, and Kilikia. So no more easy Crusades

Also, in my early campaign, the Pope also called a Crusade to Jerusalem at the appropriate time.

In my Late campaigns I have seen Crusades vs Toulouse, and numerous Jihads vs Adrianople.

[Drtad]

@Davinci
We should post a pic with FOW off, so they can see the new starting positions.

@Lorre
In 2.1 early, the Seljuks own all the Middle East except Arabia, and Kilikia. So no more easy Crusades

Also, in my early campaign, the Pope also called a Crusade to Jerusalem at the appropriate time.

In my Late campaigns I have seen Crusades vs Toulouse, and numerous Jihads vs Adrianople.

Yes I would like to see the new starting positions. Remember, the Seljuks should not start out with Edessa in the Early campaign. It was ruled by Armenians (not Kilikia, but a separate ruler, after Manzikert, Armenian nobles fled and took over most of Anatolia, and Edessa, and ruled there a few years until their unwalled settlements were overrun. Edessa was the most sturdy of these shortlived principalities and survived until the arrival of Baldwin...)

[SicilianVespers]

Yes I would like to see the new starting positions. Remember, the Seljuks should not start out with Edessa in the Early campaign. It was ruled by Armenians (not Kilikia, but a separate ruler, after Manzikert, Armenian nobles fled and took over most of Anatolia, and Edessa, and ruled there a few years until their unwalled settlements were overrun. Edessa was the most sturdy of these shortlived principalities and survived until the arrival of Baldwin...)

Here are the new early starting positions (see minimap). Don't worry about Edessa, I am still working it. It is too far east right now, and I want to create a new province for Armenia as well. I have been re-drawning borders here and there as I go (Kiev and Barqah/Siwa).



The Principality of Novgorod has obviously changed into the Grand Principality of Kiev. I still have some repositioning to do in Spain (County of Portugal and County of Barcelona), and I want to rearrange the provinces arounf Brittany and Anjou. I am thinking about changing the Brittany/Rennes province into Maine.

[|Lorre|]

I know that I'm monotonous but..... release date????
(I'm drooling )

[Drtad]

Great looking map! Just one tiny criticism: Shouldn't Georgia be independant? And maybe Nicaea should be in Seljuk hands, or did that happen a bit later? Also, I am not sure if the Romans held all of Crimea from Caffa. I thought they only owned the Theme of Chersonesos. Genoa later took control of Caffa if I am not mistaken and the Romans held Chersonesos.

[DaVinci]

Great looking map! Just one tiny criticism: Shouldn't Georgia be independant? And maybe Nicaea should be in Seljuk hands, or did that happen a bit later? Also, I am not sure if the Romans held all of Crimea from Caffa. I thought they only owned the Theme of Chersonesos. Genoa later took control of Caffa if I am not mistaken and the Romans held Chersonesos.

I guess, you are correct with all your assumptions, except Nicaea was, afaik, still in the Byzantine hands at 1080. If the Crimea 'peninsula' can get still two regions might be dependant of the max possible number of regions.

@ Konst. Alexander:
- The recruitment behaviour of the Byzantines is now in 2.1 another. They recruit, what they have available. - And in my Early test they invade Italy (Spoleto), or better said, they tried to, as the garrison script is working very good
- Crusades/Jihads in M2: I actually made this topic, to find out, if and how the M2 engine works works with the theme, historical or total ahistorical, and how the AI handles it. Or just, if we will investigate a way to improve this theme, as i persoanlly at least, also hate any 100% ahistorical game developments. But this is a matter of the long-term mod development, and can't be broken over the knee.

[SicilianVespers]

Great looking map! Just one tiny criticism: Shouldn't Georgia be independant? And maybe Nicaea should be in Seljuk hands, or did that happen a bit later? Also, I am not sure if the Romans held all of Crimea from Caffa. I thought they only owned the Theme of Chersonesos. Genoa later took control of Caffa if I am not mistaken and the Romans held Chersonesos.

This was a first pass at the provinces, I will still have to go back and tweak.

Georgia really should be split into two provinces, I think the Seljuks controlled the eastern part of the province depicted in SV. The Crimea only holds one province as well, so it's hard to make the proper historical appearance.

You're right about Nicaea, the Crusaders actually liberated it on their march to the Holy Land, but I believe the Byz held the coast of SV's Nicaea province.

I will be adding more provinces with 2.1, so I'll see if I can do something here for a more historical feel.

I still have to count up the provinces to see how many I can add.

[Konstantin Alexander]

I cannot say for sure, how much territory on the asiatic side of the Bophorus was in byzantine hands at 1080, but i can definately say, that in 1083 Chalcedon and Nicomedia had byzantine garrisons, as Alexios wrote two letters to the officers, demanding a survey of the troops after several skirmishes with the Turks.

As a side note:

As the crusaders were besieging Nicaea in 1097, it was Alexios, who arranged for the cities surrender in secret. He sent Boutoumites in the city, while another officer, Taticius, was helping the crusaders in front of the walls and with both he coordinated "a ruse that tricked the Franks into believing the city had been taken by force." Obviously he did not want his frankish "allies" pillaging the city, which he looked forward to incooperate into his empire again and although he gave out presents to the noble and common participants of the crusade alike, the Franks felt deprived of the glory (and the loot of course) and some minor quarrels surfaced, that had been brewing since the crusaders had been camping near Contsantinople. (Or, in the case of Bohemond, since 1081, when he fought against Alexios at Dyrrakhion.)

[Boztorgai_Khan]

This was a first pass at the provinces, I will still have to go back and tweak.

Georgia really should be split into two provinces, I think the Seljuks controlled the eastern part of the province depicted in SV. The Crimea only holds one province as well, so it's hard to make the proper historical appearance.

You're right about Nicaea, the Crusaders actually liberated it on their march to the Holy Land, but I believe the Byz held the coast of SV's Nicaea province.

I will be adding more provinces with 2.1, so I'll see if I can do something here for a more historical feel.

I still have to count up the provinces to see how many I can add.

Provinces: Amorium ( Turkish: Emirdag ) in Western of Iconium and East-South of Nicaea.

Before Ottoman and Ilkhanate was the name AMORIUM ( In time of Seljuk Turks, was Amorium ( Emirdag ) of Byzantines Seljuks was in Iconium ( Konya )

In Time Ottoman and Ilkhanate was the name EMIRDAG or EMIR-DAG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorium

[Drtad]

Bursa would be a fantastic province to add. It would be good for Ottomans as well as it was their capital.

@Boztorgai: Is that screenshot from Civilization 3?

[Boztorgai_Khan]

Bursa would be a fantastic province to add. It would be good for Ottomans as well as it was their capital.

@Boztorgai: Is that screenshot from Civilization 3?

Yes, Bursa and Sogut was the Capital of the Ottomans.

But AMORIUM ( Emirdag ) and ESKISEHIR.. was the Castle of Ottoman.


@Drtad: Here is the site of that Picture;

http://www.civfanatics.com/images/ci...e-HolyLand.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ2/down...rios/medieval/


Recpect

[Boztorgai_Khan]

I think that in Anatolia; Bursa, Emirdag, Eskisehir, Ankara and Antalya is very cool and that Constantinople After 1453 AD Changed in ISTANBUL..

And in Middle East South of Caspian Sea, A Castle Tabriz.

[gaius valerius]

i wont detail all my infamous crusader or jihad sieges but give a general overview of my experience with them:

- overall i have the experience that there aren't many crusades and jihads (unless i keep calling them). in the early era they are way to easy cuz there is no muslim nation (if they alrdy captured cities like jerusalem that is) capable of putting up effective resistance against heavy european troops. in the late era there is much more resistance (though its all but futile when i show up ) but they are generally more fun then. i always have the impression that the AI doesn't anticipate crusades or jihads?

- there are generally very little nations taking part in the crusades (in the early era i it took 2-3 crusades before *finally* the germans came to join me, and i was the small angevin empire), in the early era they are to weak i dont know, and in the late era like half of the catholic nations has no papal favor and most of them are excommunicated. so crusading also becomes sort of a solo business and mostly it is against excommunicated factions. again, if i dont call them.

- allies mostly dont betray you when its a crusade.

- jihads are almost always answered, just the moors stay at home sometimes. the jihad-armies are always more numerous (3-4) but really weak.

- the moors seem very not bound on conquering the iberian peninsula, they never call for a jihad against spain, portugal or aragon. why have they seemed to have rested in the fact that the catholics will kick them out?? where is that second poitiers?

- jihads are almost directed at the byzantines (or jerusalem/antioch when occupied by the 'infidels' ), but alwaaaays fail. byzantines are way to strong for the muslim factions (when controlled by AI). though this is an issue for another section i guess. i wandered why the muslim factions dont call a jihad at rome or so? to hit the catholics were it hurts?

- the mongolians dont seem to make use of jihads to conquer eastern europe... someone needs to teach those lame horse riding nitwits the value of religious zeolotism!!


- though this has less to do with the experience of crusading itself, in several mods they introduced dismounted templar/hosp/teut. knights, those are awesome but aren't present in SV, i think it would be great to introduce them to make religious orders more interesting.

[Tadzreuli]

Shouldn't Georgia be independant?

of course , tanks Drtad for the truth ! +rep

[Konstantin Alexander]

- the moors seem very not bound on conquering the iberian peninsula, they never call for a jihad against spain, portugal or aragon. why have they seemed to have rested in the fact that the catholics will kick them out?? where is that second poitiers?

I can confirm this. Since i have this game i´ve never seen any Jihad against the Spaniards. Not with Vanilla, not with UAI, not with SV. In fact i´ve never seen the Moors resist the spanish factions for more than 50 turns, before they are thrown out of Iberia. Sometimes they manage to hold Africa, but often enough the Spanish just wipe them out after another 20-40 turns.

[gaius valerius]

i know, but isnt that kind of sad? they are by far one of the cooler islamic nations, after the turks. they have this sweet units like urban militia, camel gunners, christian guards, hashashim... and for what??? they never get to use it cuz after 50 turns the portugese show up in tunis???? *sigh*

at best they sometimes conquer spain only to then be brutally nailed in the ass by the portugese... i just wish they would defy the catholic nations and kick their asses, then i could go and kick them back