Aragon

**numerosdecimus** · June 09, 2007, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by ME2_junky

I changed the proposed building tree by a word

But I think, regarding the javilnmen...that Leon-Castille should get Basque, Aragon can have Almugavars
& Portugal can have Lusitanian.
Not because it is 100% accurate, but rather for diversity and uniqueness in factions.

Basque should be "tougher" as in a point or two in defence more & higher moral
lusitanian should be cheaper
almugavars should be probably as they are.

How about it?

I disagree here. The tradition of Javelinmen goes much before in the regions of Lusitania. The fact that they would remain slightly superior to the standard javelinmen in about one point but with the same price as a standard javelinmen(as they are now) reflects this very ancient tradition that in a realistic terns would also provide very good learning techniques and culturally how much the population is involved in it. In fact, this tradition of the javelinmen in Lusitania also applied to horserider javelinmens(jinetes) and they were the creators of the famous "cantarebian technique". The tradition of the javelin is much older and enrooted in the region of Lusitania. Second, another indication of this is that during the roman invasions, when the Lusitans used "gerilha" techniques that were composed of hit and run attacks that involved javelinmen in large and small groups, depending on the occasions, but very frequently and in much more "javelin" based ways and tactics than the other tribes in east and northeast of Iberia.

In this case, the guys in CA did not mistake themselves concerning javelinmen.

One thing that the Lusitanian Javelinmen should have as superior is both morale and attack. I'm not certain about defense, but the defensive equipment used in the early middle age by Portuguese javelinmen wouldn't be that advanced, probably they used that they had immediately available to them. This tradition of course, remained untill the middle ages.

What if we do things this way (mostly focussing on gameplay but with some historical background):

Basque Javelinmen: Standard price, extra defense

Lusitanian Javelinmen: Standard price, the rest remains as it is in vanilla.

Almugavars: Unique for Aragon.

**Poisoner** · June 09, 2007, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Yuiis

I agree that with Vanilla map, having 4 factions in the peninsula would be a bit too much. But lets remember that in SS there's more provinces in the iberian peninsula. I think that with 3 or 4 more regions (from Vanilla's map) should be enough to increase zone's game play. I always put this example that no one seems to argue against me:

In Italy there are 5 factions!!! not 3, 5!! in vanilla!!! HRE, Sicily, Papal States, Milan, Venice. Does that make those factions unplayable? I think not.

I made a map of a possible region arrengement so that each faction has atleast one rebel province next to it to invade. It is also fairly historically accurate if thats something you care about

(Its the first time I use image shack...)

Green & White=Rebels
the rest of factions you can guess i believe

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/7...sulamapei1.png

It is just an approx. as to how the zone could be worked out. Then just making starting cities and armies of diff. factions stronger or weaker could solve the problem of unbalancing. I dont think the real problem would be a supposed overcrowding of the zone! But then again its just my opinion...

The Papal States do not count. HRE has the entire of central Europe to expand. Sicily has Africa and Venice pushes East while Milan can go north, and south to expand if you choose to develop a naval power. Even with the extra provinces in the Iberian it is still too tight. While Italy is crowded there is much more room there.

**ME2_junky** · June 09, 2007, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Poisoner

Yes. Thats what King Kong said himself when everyone voted for a new faction for the 4.0 version of Stainless Steel. You already have three powers within the Iberian with only two provinces that are open to take. Now the Moors have Africa to expand. But in order to add Aragon you would need to give them Barcelona and either Zaragoza or Valencia. If you gave them Zaragoza you would have to give the Spainish Valencia and give them or kill el Cid, to keep it balanced.

With four factions there isn't much room to expand so you can't get a good money and recruitment pool. When the Moors take all of west Africa the Catholic factions won't have what they need to resist them.

Well in a way you are correct...but historically the crown of Aragon took Valencia & headed towards Italy...as in Baeleric Islands, Sardinia & Sicily....So technically there is where to expand in the current setting as well...but potentially another region in the continent, perhaps between Valencia and Cordoba...

In any case I feel that it can be done...similarly to facilitating regions for the knights templar...

In reality there were MANY more regions in spain...adding another one or two in the game will definitely give a challanging play for whoever plays Aragon...as Leon-Castille have to be appeased while fighting the moors & or avoiding trouble with France...

But at the end of the day...its like food...if you don't like EVERYTHING in your plate, you do not have to eat it...just what you like ;-)

**ME2_junky** · June 09, 2007, 02:30 PM

deleted

**ME2_junky** · June 09, 2007, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by numerosdecimus

What if we do things this way (mostly focussing on gameplay but with some historical background):

Basque Javelinmen: Standard price, extra defense

Lusitanian Javelinmen: Standard price, the rest remains as it is in vanilla.

Almugavars: Unique for Aragon.

That works for me and sounds quite reasonable.

Anyone else want to voice an opinion here?

**ME2_junky** · June 09, 2007, 03:23 PM

I propose this addition to the CURRENT campaign map in SS 3.2

What say you?

**numerosdecimus** · June 09, 2007, 07:28 PM

I agree with most things in that map.

But we need to be careful concerning new provinces, so what changes would wee need in the current SS campaing map? My opinion is that you add that new province to Portugal (but the northern province would be Porto, because of economical importance). If we add aragon we can already give Aragon 3 provinces at least (4 if you count the Balears). However, should Castele-Leon have 3 provinces or 4? Castele-Leon would have 3 provinces if you count Salamanca, Leon and Toledo, but it could have four if you count Valencia, yet, despite this numbers, shoud we add a fourth province for Castel-Leon, independetly of Valencia? It's that Valencia could be conquered by the Moors quickly. Finally, concerning the Moors, another province must be added for them, so that they can have at least 3, but if they can conquer Valencia then they would have 4. The reason why I'm not counting Valencia to be conquered by Aragon is because Aragon would have other more important provinces to be conquered before others do, such as Barcelona and the Balears.

I think first we should see attend to the absolutely essencial, concerning what provinces are needed in the iberian peninsula, after that we can do some tweaks and these tweaks would include adding one or two more provinces to make the peninsula more "lively and active" or if needed to make a faction stronger because that faction would be at disadvantage when comparing with the others. I think we should follow this line of thought because then we could maximise the efficiency and even better monitorize the results of each step because we wouldn't be making a gigantic change between one version and another and then if some unexpected problem concerning balance happens we could need to make more substancial and the hole things would become disorganized. Besides, we should try to maximize and give as much fun as possible to the iberian peninsula but without exagetaing the number of provinces but at the same time putting that number of provinces that would make the peninsula spacious enough for a 4 strong factions and for a challenging conquest of the peninsula for any of the factions and most importantly, a balanced one. Another thing is the possible slowdowns because of the number of provinces and the fact that the map is now 20% to 30% bigger.

**ME2_junky** · June 09, 2007, 10:03 PM

For starting provinces I thought Castille-Leon should have Leon and Toledo, Portugal should have Lisbon & Oporto & Aragon should have Zaragosa.

This allows Portugal to potentially get Salamanca and Silves without entering war with a faction.

Castille-Leon can take Salamanca, Valencia & Pamplona.

Aragon could reach for Pamplona, Valencia & Barcelona.

Whoever gets a ship to Malorca can take that as initially Aragon should not have a port as it can have only Zaragosa

The moors also might benefit with a possible conquest of Murcia and Silves, or for the catholic factions for whoever manages to push into Cordoba which will probably be Castille-Leon and or Portugal as it will be a giant leap for an opening game with Aragon.

The provinces added compared with current SS 3.2 map were actually only Murcia and Silves.
(The region area were changes slightly but not much)

So there were 12 originally & we added 2 thus giving roughly 16.6%

Not that much of an increase innit?

**Neaera** · June 10, 2007, 03:33 AM

I've found some informations about "Religion Order" in "Iberian Peninsula":

First, there was the Order of Calatrava, founded in 1158.
Especially, in Castille-Leon.