New Battle Mechanics for 1.2

[TurkishWarrior]

Hi,
I am interested in your work in the Mitteleuropa 1.0, Sinuhet.
Especially i will be glad to try your new battle mechanics for patch 1.2 in this release.
And so, my question: Is it possible to upload the files about battle system only?
Regards,
TurkishWarrior.

[Sinuhet]

Hi TurkishWarrior!

There is no special battle mechanics in released version 1.0 of Mitteleuropa mod other than the battle mechanics developed by me originally for MTW2 version 1.0. This battel mechanics is highly stable, throughly tested as for CTDs abd it is still far better than the origianl vanilla files in MTW2 1.2.

It is maybe true, that this my battle mechanics is already a bit oldish, and that the new engine in 1.2 patched exe file is introducing new exciting possibilities for battle mechanics modding generally, but I am last 2 months in very limited free time, so I have prefered to release all the previous my work on the MTW2 platform in form of the Mitteleuropa mod, and when I will have more free time in future I will expand some parts of it and develop the newer versions with new features, including the battle mechanics, which will be released as standalone pack also, 100%.

Right now, I am very unsure as for terms of such eventual releases of newly developed things for MTW2 in future, however, the free time is for me now very unpredictable thing, unfortunatelly...

Nevertheless, thanks for the interest in my work in battle mechanics. Also, the battle mechanis in Mitteleuropa version 1.0 is the same as the standalone version 1.0 of it, but it is functioning in it together with new EDU. txt file originally developed by GODzilla for xziang1983s animations, so maybe playing the battles in Mitteleuropa mod is something quite original compared to other mods. I have played with it several exciting battles, mainly on the pre1.2, but also with official patch 1.2 for MTW2. Quick battles generated in the Mitteleuropa mod are sometimes causing CTDs (maybe due to newly introduced units for some factions), but many times are very interesting to play, in my opinion. I am playing them from time to time and I see them (maybe I am biased) as more interesting than the battles in Lands to Conquer version 2.2, which I am playing sometimes too, the difference is the most visible in presumably cavalry and missile cavalry armies. (On the other hand, the campaigns I am playing very sporadically last months, always only for testing purposes, so I dont compare the respective features of these two mods generally, and in no case as for campaign .....). So, you can be interested in downloading the Mitteleuropa mod only due to battles, if you like the featurs of my battle mechanics more than the vanilla or the ones developed by other modders .....

Bye Sinuhet

[TurkishWarrior]

Hi,
Thanks for the reply, Sinuhet.
I will try to use your old battle mechanics with this 1.2 patch. I hope it will work properly...
And also i hope you will prepare highly detailed and advanced new battle mechanics for M2TW when you have free time. I will be glad to see your new battle formations like your previous work in RTW and BI. They were nearly perfect, and i had lots of fun playing RTW with them.
Keep up your good work.
Best wishes,
TurkishWarrior.

[Sinuhet]

thanks

[Sinuhet]

just uploaded new battle mechanics for MTW2, see the stick threads in this subforum. It is fully compatible with not only my Mitteleuropa mod (I recommend to all users to download it and copy into Bohemia/data subfolder instead of the current SBM version 1.0, which is included in last versions of Mitteleuropa), but also with vanilla MTW patched to 1.2 version or any other mod, which has not aggressively changed/not added new factions compared to vanilla. Enjoy

[Sinuhet]

just uploaded new version of my battle mechanics for MTW2, see the stick threads in this subforum. It is fully compatible with not only my Mitteleuropa mod (I recommend to all users to download it and copy into Bohemia/data subfolder instead of the current SBM version 1.0, which is included in last versions of Mitteleuropa), but also with vanilla MTW patched to 1.2 version or any other mod, which has not aggressively changed/not added new factions compared to vanilla. The version 3.0 of this my mod is merging all good features from previous versions - 1. new attack formation called Open_battle from version 1.0 (still futher restructured for optimal functionality based on feedback), 2. and from version 2.0 my own formations migrated from RTW platform, which are used by AI for defence and for initial deployment of units for the AI and also Human Player (the variety of different layouts is far more fence than in the vanilla MTW2). Enjoy

[TurkishWarrior]

Hi Sinuhet,
First of all, thank you very much for this release of new battle mechanics. I will try them as soon as possible and will give feedback to you.
Keep up your good work,
Regards,
TurkishWarrior.

[Sinuhet]

Thanks for a stimulation, TurkishWarrior.

Also, after performing some other tests with both of the versions of my Battle Mechanics targeted on MTW2 platform, I have decided to stick the version 2.0 again. It is "younger" in development time-line, true, but after making comparative tests with the version 3.0, I went to conclusion, that each of them have some positives and negatives. The version 2.0 is definitely more vanilla-like, but it is also more deadly in some settings of battles (mainly in massive frontal attacks, which are relatively common). The version 3.0 is a bit more fency and refined as for used techniques, but a rough power is sometimes winning....

In every case, both versions of my formations are orientated on the function mainly, compared to similarly sophisticated products of other authors (it is such a small elite club, the creators of TW games battle AI ), which are implementing new systems of "historically correct" layouts of formations primarily - and this is also the "main" difference of my formations compared to the both others. In other aspects (i.e. differences in other than AI formations files) are differences maybe still more deeper on theoretical level, but less visible for average Player, if we would compare the files modded by all three authors respectively ... The other Battel Mechanics are modding wider spectrum of files than the ones of mine, true, but you can do your own mixes according to you own tastes ...

So, everybody really interested in my work should try both of them and pick up the one, which is more suitable for his/her style of battles, if he/she will decide to go with my product further .... Generally speaking, the preferences are largely subjective in such multi-parameter things like battle AI is. You have a choice between my two comparable products. Take the better one and enjoy them ....

Bye Sinuhet

[TurkishWarrior]

Hi,
First of all, thanks for detailed explanations, dear Sinuhet.
I have tried your battle mechanics v3.0. I have made some custom battles.

First, i should say that my interest generally focuses on cavalry behavior. So i took england with lots of heavy infantry and archers against france with lots of heavy cavalry, heavy infantry support and some missile units.

I was expecting a bit more agressive cavalry behaviour, in fact. But ai cavalry acts a bit passively. Yes they made some effective charges especially to my longbowmen, but i think they should be more quick and agressive.

Infantry and missile units behaviour was good. I didnt notice any problem.

My second battle was against mongols(lots of heavy cavalry, including horse archers of course...), with nearly same army as england. I was expecting their light missile cavalry to flank me and weaken my infantry with rain of arrows. But the prefered to come in front of my lines and begin to shoot from there.

At both battles i have gained clear victories, because of the fact that ai cavalry acts a bit passively. Especially i really expected to see massive horse archers flanking me, terrifying heavy cavalry caharges against my infantry etc...

Do you think this cavalry behaviour can be corrected, Sinuhet? Is it possible to modify? If so, it will be great

After that, i will try your other battle mechanics, v2.0. And i will continue to feedback.

Ragards,
TurkishWarrior.

[Sinuhet]

Hi TurkishWarrior!

Sorry, I cannot react earlier ...

As for cavalry behaviour, I must admit that - afer reading your post I recalled the similar battles I have played during my tests - the cavalry behaviour is acting a bit "uniformly" ...

I dont grasped quite exactly if you have compared the behaviour of cavalry with my formations with vanilla MTW2 or some other mods for MTW2 or with mods directed for RTW platform.

It is very important to grasp, that MTW2 platform is completely ruined compared to RTW platform as for AI formations. The CA has gone for MTW2 platform in direction of implementing of only 1 (really only one!!!!) common formation for attacks (also need to mention that even one attack formation is used for all factions in MTW2 vanilla). This CAs basic idea is highly incorporated in hardcode also and this is limiting possibilites of "tailored" attack formations for variuos types of armies as for involved types of units (cavalry heavy ones vs missile cavalry ones vs infantry ones etc.).

I have done really intensive research as for possibilities of usage more than one attack formation based on the various tricks with priorities, placing of formations templates, changes in config_ai_battle.xml file in the respective part for attack formations (for example the intuitive simple adding new names for attack formations in this xml file is no value while not causing CTDs...). However, the CAs original layout is only one stable. I have managed to "remove" pre-defined tripple rows attack formation from the system (it is possible only by way of hexediting the respective pack file, only removing this part form your "modded" file is cauising that the game is using the same file from the data pack ) and game then used also other attack formations defined by me, but the game started to be highly unstable. It is not clear to me the reason for this, but it is highly probable that in hardcode is predefined usage of this CA original formation template for some other purposes.

So, with this limitation, it is a real pain to create sufficiently flexible one formation, which would be used for attacks in MTW2 highly efficiently for all types of armies. I have gone in the direction of maximal balance, maybe with a bit more biased approach for infantry heavy types of armies....


If you are comparing this MTW2 based formations with the ones intended for RTW hardcode, where eg. I have implemented very deadly horse archers and cavalry attacks by a system of a lot of various attack formations including the so called "small" ones, then here is situation quite clear. The CA has also ruined this "micromanagment on the level of tactics" by removing "pursue" purpose flag from MTW2 hardcode. They have introduced the "flanking" parameter in the above mentioned xml file, true, but it is improvement compared to vanilla RTW, not compared to my AI formations for RTW.... So, if you have some expectations based on my RTW formations, you must be disappointed definitely, but there is no way how to fix this in a more "targeted" approach.

However, if you have a feeling, that all types of cavalry during usage of my MTW2 battle mechanics are acting passively compared to vanilla MTW2 or some other product by other author intended for MTW2 platform, then my mod would be weak in this point and I will try to tweak their aggressivity ... Let me know, if you have meant this thing...

However, I have not myself such feeling during my tests, I have seen several "envelopes" of cavalry around infantry and also horse archers are attacking from all sides if it is advantage compared to massive frontal "missile" attack, which you described in one of your battle too. Here is very important to mention, that game is using the defend formations in the old RTW style. So, if you are using "autoplay" or if you let for your army some of the "wide" defensive formations defined by me with intention to prevent flanking of cavalry, then the "passive" behaviour is only a result of usage my own defensive formations. It could be also a reason for "worse" behaviour of my formations in this thing compared to vanilla ones, because CA is using only one defensive formation, which is highly compact, and from this reason any cavalry is tending to outflank it always. Such a cheap trick from side of the CA, but very effective as for average player, who is awaiting "simple" and "effective" way of battles during the first battles after buying the game. But this is not AI, it is a brainless repetitive behaviour, in which can find some sense maybe some of the teen-years boys only, but normal player is after several battles from "some reason" a bit bored ... One must recall the main goal of the CA everytime .....

Thank you for your feedback,
Bye Sinuhet

[TurkishWarrior]

Hi, Sinuhet.

First, thank you very much for such an intensive and highly detailed explanation.

However, if you have a feeling, that all types of cavalry during usage of my MTW2 battle mechanics are acting passively compared to vanilla MTW2 or some other product by other author intended for MTW2 platform, then my mod would be weak in this point and I will try to tweak their aggressivity ... Let me know, if you have meant this thing...

It is my fault that i didnt explain this at my previous post. Sorry, beacuse of this. I can say that the effectiveness of your battle formations are nearly as the same as vanilla. But i can say also, heavy cavalry behaviour is only a bit passive than vanilla, but the difference is very slight.

Light cavalry, especially the missile ones, are exactly the same as vanilla.

In fact, in my previous post, i tried to mean that your formations is a bit passive according to your RTW and BI formations. And there is some authors like Darth or GrandViz. I tried both of them. Especially darth ai, focuses on cavalry behaviour. His cavalry(in this position i mean heavy cavalry, not missile ones) runs everywhere, charges everything, even against my pikeman! Yes, it is a truth that his cavalry, especially at the beginning of battle, makes terrifying charges against infantry. But they are so agressive that they charge my pikeman while there is no reason for this... And his missile troops have some problems too. Sometimes his archers charge against my troops unreasonably.

To summarize, i think this changes should be done to ai, if it is possible, of course.
1- Cavalry should make the first charge,not infantry and especially against human player's sword infantry or archers.
2- Archers or other missile infantry should make proper support for the other troops. Especially if ai has lots of missile troops, they shouldnt engage with human player, if it is not necessary. They should make skirmishing and thus should force human player to attack.
3- Horse archery is still too important in medieval ages. Lets look at mongols or timurids and see their power to describe this.
Also eastern europeon factions like hungary or poland have the power of horse archery.
So i think, if ai have lots of horse archers in his army, they should try to flank human player, go behind enemy lines, and force human player to lose his formations. After weakening the enemy in this way, ai heavy cavalry should charge against weakened enemy troops. Thus, ai can root the human player troops easily...

Ok, these are only my opinions and i know that it will be so difficult to make these utopic formations to reality But i really want to see old RTW atmosphere(of course with your formations) in M2TW.

And i believe that you, Sinuhet, can do more, of course if you have free time to work on these formations. I really want to see that your formations will become more and more popular as it is in past.

I wish your work and efforts will make the exellent M2TW ai of all.

Best regards,

TurkishWarrior.

[Sinuhet]

Hi TurkishWarrior!

Thanks for your continuous feedback and stimulating me ....

I have done other deep research of possiblity to implement more attack formations in MTW2 platform, and yesterday in the end after several days of trials with various tricks I have maneged to implement all my RTW formations (including all attacking ones !!!!) to be used fully in MTW2 platform too. It is a real breaktrought, I think, as for opening new possiblities for the whole MTW2 platform battle AI.

After achieving this without CTD for the first time I was excited in the manner comparable with moment, when I firstly cracked the demo scripted battles and played a battle with 20 Kings Richards .... I was happy in the first moment ...

However, after the first excitement, I ahd then almost sleepless night, because the change for the whole MTW2 negine is so shocking, that the changes in config_ai_battle.xml file, which I have done for SBM 3.0 are causing total passivity of both HP and AI player in the start of the battles. It is RTWish behavour, which is pronounced in MTW2 by some settings in the respective xml file. I have managed to do some corrections, but the impact of the several tens of new formations for atack and defence (compared to only one in vanilla) is so deep, that a situation is very complex and complicated to achieve balance .... However, what is important, it is feasible to achive similar behavour of battel AI like in RTW from this moment .....

This my findings are opening a possibility to implement specail horse archres formations for mongols now, and really, battles are now different compared to vanilla MTW2 approach and also compared to my previous formations for MTW2 ...

As for your suggestions that unit type A will attack in some phase of battle unit type B, it is implementable not via formations, but only via tweaking EDU file. I have done this for repmans BareBoneWars mod in RTW, and I will try to implment this also in my Mitteleuropa mod. But it is a lot of time to do it, so it will in circa month or two, not earlier .... Another solution is "non"targeted approach of increasing aggressivity of all units of type A (as you have decribed that DV has in his mod for cavalry), but this approach will ahve always its weak points (like you ahve described with cavalry attacking without a reason pikemen....).

So, after yesterday, I am quie optimistic as for possibilities what all will be achievable in MTW2 platform, but it is a question some time to put this into reality ..... Till this time, I offer the version 3.0 or 2.0 of my battle mechanics, or go alternatively with my two competitors products if their product is able achive some kind of behavour you prefer largely (eg the more aggressive cavalry) ...

Bye, Sinuhet

[TurkishWarrior]

Hi Sinuhet,

First of all, i should say that these news are great for development of your battle mechanics and of course also for the future of Medieval 2 TW.

It is good to see there is a hope to implement advanced battle tactics including horse archery, faction based attack and defence formations to M2TW, like it was all in RTW.

Now i have decided to go with vanilla formations. Because they are simple, and somehow effective. Sometimes simplicity is good. Because it works as it should be... Other authors formations, yes, they have some good points like agressivity of heavy cavalry, but they still need development. None of them are perfect or nearly perfect

I am sure that your formations will be great when it is finished. I am looking forward to them

Best wishes,

TurkishWarrior.

[Sinuhet]

To show what the new version of my formations (SBM 4.0) is able to achieve, I will point out only a fact, that even Darth Vader is stating in his Readme to his latest version of Darth Mod for MTW2, that the engine is not able to handle the different formations for respective factions.

This is exactly the thing that is implemented in the SBM 4.0. Well, our parallel and independent development is resulting in quite different solutions in our mods like previously in year 2006 in RTW platform. It wolud be quite interesting to give a report if anyone will try my formations in the new version of the Darth mod. I am just curious what the impacts of the mixing them would be on the gameplay ...

Nevertheless, this version is not in any case fully functional and I am not able to grant that also full stable. However, it is the formation mod on the top of the technlogical possibilites of the MTW2 platform....

The details are in the Readme. Enjoy