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Thread: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

  1. #1
    RedFox's Avatar When it's done.™
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    Default The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    <Image links all dead and won't be fixed. Ever. Sorry.>

    I figured that it would be time to write a small AAR on XGM – Diadochi, this will also be the first official preview there is, so I hope you like it.
    Changes might not be evident right away, but it’s still a WIP.


    The Battle of Isthmos, 279 BC

    Location: Near Isthmos causeway
    Date: 19th November, 279BC
    Combatants: Kingdom of Macedon vs The Aegean League

    Estimated size of forces:

    Macedonia:
    29000 Levied Pikemen
    9500 Pezhetairoi, well trained nobility
    5000 Asthetairoi, royal guard
    9500 Macedonian and Allied skirmishers
    7000 Heavy and Light cavalry

    Total numbers:
    probably around 60000 men,
    no specific details on the actual numbers

    Aegean League:
    6400 Medium Cavalry
    9600 Heavy and Light skirmishers
    15000 Heavily armored Thorakitai
    28800 Well armored Iphikratean Phalangites

    Total numbers:
    about ~59800 men in total

    Aftermath: Unknown


    Prelude:
    In the summer of 279 BC, Macedon had just regained it’s northern provinces after the death of Lysimachus and struggled to keep it’s weakened economy together. News had reached Antigonos that the subjugated cities of Greece have regained most of their strenght and are gathering vast armies to free their land from Macedonian rule. This is a huge threat to the weak Kingdom of Macedon, Antigonos does what he must and sends word – every able soldier from every city of Macedon must march south towards Thermopylae and pass it before the Greeks can make their move.
    Antigonos knew that he needs to be present in Pella or the slaves will revolt, so he assigns his son, Gyras to lead the army to battle and regain control of the Isthmos. He also knows that a sound garrison must be maintained in Philippi, loosing the gold mines there would spill disaster to his treasury and the Kingdom would collapse.
    To ensure protection, he sends a diplomat to Thrace, the semi-barbarous Greeks, a young nation that came into being after Lysimachus’s death, Antigonos knows the Thracians want to recapture northern Macedonia, but to have even a short guarantee of peace, an Alliance is formed, which the Thracians accept rather willingly, perhaps to strengthen their borders against the Getai. With the Northern border secure, another diplomat is sent to Asia Minor and yet another Alliance is formed with the Kingdom of Pergamum – the true remains of Lysimachus. What follows is a brief Ceasefire with the Seleucids, which leaves the Attalids alone against them. Antigonos does not take pride in his treacherous nature, but to ensure safety of his nation, nothing is ever too cruel.



    Finally, the East and North are secure for a short period of time, the Epirotes had already formed an alliance a year earlier so they could fight the Romans and Antigonos doesn’t have plans set against the Epirotes… yet.


    Gyras, the son of Antigonos, a truly noble man, gathers his troops from all across Macedon, Levies join from all corners of the Kingdom, including elite Pikemen from Pella, cavalry from Larissa and Skirmishers from the islands.
    But Gyras knows better, he has heard reports of a strong presence of Achaeans in Aetolia, he dispatches a moderate skirmish force, consisting of maybe 13000 men to march west and secure Magnesia from any threats and assigns Cleitus to command this small skirmishing force.

    Gyras himself marches towards Isthmos with his ~60000 when he hears that the Achaeans have been angered by the aggressive moves made by him and are laying siege to Corinth, he also learns that Cleitus had a major clash with the Achaeans and barely made it out alive, though neither side had gained the upper hand (a Pyrrhic draw?).
    He is worried that Cleitus might be overrun, but Cleitus ensures Gyras that by the end of the month, the Achaeans from Aetolia will be weakened enough so they pose no threat to Macedon.

    Around 40 miles from Isthmos, he receives word, the Aegeans under the command of Timoleon have slipped past his army and are laying siege to Larissa, he intends to split his force in half in order to deal with this new threat, but the messenger warns him, that a huge part of the Aegeans are positioned 60 miles from Athens, not long passed until he saw the Aegeans, boldly marching towards him.
    Fear and excitement took control of Gyras, he could only awe at what he saw, an army equal to his, a mere portion of the Aegean army surpassed the combined forces of all Macedon. He knew what must be done, only a complete rout of the Aegean army could ensure Macedon’s survival.

    On the eve of 17th November, the Armies met and preparations for the upcoming battle began, - a battle which would decide the future of all Greece.
    Gyras delayed the battle for a day until his army was fully prepared and on a cold morning on the 19th, he was forced into battle, when the Aegeans advanced with the whole of their army towards the best Macedon had to offer and hoped to all but completely destroy the Macedonians.



    The Battle:

    The Aegeans marched towards Gyras, - he had prepared a strong defensive position against the Greeks on a steep hill and hoped to keep back the better trained Greeks until his powerful cavalry could smash the rear of the Phalangites.

    But without any notice, a large portion of Greek cavalry emerged from the woods.


    Gyras had not expected this, but being an experienced commander he did not panic and ordered the Prodromoi to attack the cavalry, who managed to rout them with ease, which was surprising to even Gyras and more perhaps to the Aegean commander.


    He was now confident and believed that victory could be achieved if he is able to flank the Greeks. But suddenly another portion of cavalry ambushed Gyras’s bodyguard, all the left flank was surprised of this, nobody ever saw them coming and an intense fight between the both armies cavalries ensued.


    But the Macedonians were more in number and finally managed to rout the rest of their cavalry.


    Now, Gyras saw an opportunity, the Greek archers hadn’t noticed the defeat of their cavalry and still confidently marched forwards. Without any delay, he ordered his men to attack immediately hoping to rout the Archers before they can do any serious damage to his closely packed Pikemen.


    But then the Archers turned and fled, he realized this was a trap and as his Allied cavalry smashed into the ranks of the enemy Phalangites, he ordered them to retreat immediately to prevent loosing the best of his cavalry.


    The Greeks gave chase and pursued the cavalry, being ignorant of Gyras’s archers who were in range and opened fire on the isolated Phalangites – Gyras had made a trap himself, even though unplanned, it was still brilliant and the Greeks suffered heavy losses under the rain of arrows. But in any war, arrows are expensive and in short time they were out of ammo, but had still inflicted heavy casualties among the Greeks.


    Meanwhile at the right flank, the Heavy Greek skirmisher dangered the weaker Allied skirmishers, but they wasted no time and threw every javelin they had towards the Thorakitai who in turn did the same, but instead of suffering long under javelin fire, they charged the Macedonian heavy skirmishers and a bloody fight ensued.


    Thorakitai was surely winning at that point, if Thureophoroi were to loose, the whole right flank would rout. But alas, the Prodromoi, whom had chased the Greeks, noticed the situation and turned around – the resulting charge devastated the Greeks so much that they lost their will to fight. The right was secure, but only for a brief amount of time.


    Now the real fight began, the centers clashed and bloody pushing match ensued, the Macedonians were fighting in tighter formations than the Greeks, which was due to an error in EDU that some slacker had ignored.
    Nevertheless the Greeks fought bravely in their more loose formation, but were surely to fight in closer formation next time.


    The advantage of macedonians was that they had a large group of officers. The first was an elite Hypaspist, followed by the standard bearer who gave all the orders and finally the musician who signaled orders given by the standard bearer and allowed the unit to march in one pace. Though this left a small gap in the formation, which the Greeks spent no time to exploit


    While the main force of the battle was fighting hard to gain the upper hand, Gyras decided to finish what he had started earlier and charged the Archers who were behind the main force.


    The rest of Allied cavalry took positions behind the Elite Greek Phalangites and were ready to break the Greek line from behind


    The center held together against the large Greek force and was actually winning, the Greek general who hoped to break the center was now fleeing from the battle. This gave confidence to Gyras and his men, surely victory was not far.

    Allied cavalry charges the rear of Phalanx but is not able to break it at first. With more cavalry joining the charge, a large portion of the enemy finally break and flee.




    Allied cavalry tries to break the Thorakitai Phalangite line once again, this time more cavalry joins the charge.


    A small part of them rout, but still not all of them, but now, the infantry on the left is free to move and outflank the enemy.
    The Elite Macedonian Guard is having a tough time fighting the Thorakitai, a truly bloody fight ensues between them, neither side gaining the advantage.


    Until it is outflanked and crushed by Pezhetairoi


    Carnage ensues until the center is completely massacred by Levy Pikemen and following that the phalangites fighting on the right break and flee.


    The Levy Pikemen really put up a heroic fight against the greeks, though many still think this was only because they had longer pikes than the Greeks.


    The Asthetairoi – or the Royal Guard, lived up to their name and were able to completely decimate an unit of Iphikratean Phalangites and survive the fight against Thorakitai.



    The final outcome of the battle was truly heroic, the enemy had been utterly crushed and driven off the field, just like Gyras planned, it was a battle that finally showed the Greeks that the Macedonians are still a force to be reckoned with.



    Aftermath:
    Following this decisive victory by Gyras, the Aegeans lost their will to fight, and Gyras could now split his army to crush Timoleon and Hermon of Sicyon and secure the region under Macedonian rule.


    On the following years, Gyras would conquer Athens, until Cleitus is defeated by Aetolians, who seek Alliance with Epirus.
    Gyras’s glory will finally come to an end when he is fighting against Pyrrhus with his father, he is badly injured and killed leaving Macedon without a line of Great commanders, who would otherwise lead Macedonia to it’s former glory.






    Now some random stuff that otherwise couldn’t fit the rest of the story:

    Seleucids – A great empire indeed, but it’s East borders are revolting due to religious pressure and the Parthians seek to wipe out the Seleucids once and for all.

    Agema Argyraspidai



    Argyraspidai vs Asthetairoi
    Argyraspidai is the best pike unit in the game and can defeat any other pike unit in combat, even the fearsome Asthetairoi, who can shred legions to pieces.



    Asthetairoi






    Battle of Raphia

    Shields


    Hetairoi


    Right Flank


    Center


    Ferocious fighting on the right flank, Antiochus is trying to regroup.


    Ptolemy killed, enemy army in disarray


    Antiochus charges and dies from a Sarissa


    Most of the enemy massacred


    Seleucids retreat


    Raphia is a difficult battle IMO, if you don’t know what you’re doing defeat will come really fast, the Argyraspidai aren’t well trained enough to oppose the outnumbering enemy pikemen.
    All unit sizes / proportions historically accurate, completely different battle. Should be 1:30 of the real battle, so yeah, it’s epic…


    Hope you liked this semi-preview AAR, if it sucked, then please be sure to notify me so I wouldn't write the same kind of crap again

    But if you liked it, then rep would be really nice indeed...
    Last edited by RedFox; March 03, 2009 at 02:13 AM.

  2. #2
    Paul d's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    wait.... what? you lost me there...

  3. #3
    Miles
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    Default Re: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    I thought it was very good, and I can't wait for the mod to be done. And it didn't suck.....write some more, I'll read them.

  4. #4
    RedFox's Avatar When it's done.™
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    Default Re: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    UPDATE: I fixed a missing link and made the beginning of it a little bit more readable.

    wait.... what? you lost me there...
    I guess you're just another casualty then, eh?

  5. #5

    Default Re: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    Tis is really astonishing, but, as I am a realsim freak, I have some questions:
    Does your mod still include the Seleucid Legionarys? As these are pretty ahistorical as they are shown in vanilla XGM.
    Does your mod include Hysteroi Pezhetairoi, i.e. the macedonian reformed phalanx that was invented during the wars with the romans?
    Does your mod make Seleucid Cataphraktoi dependent on marian's reform, or on another reform sytem? As Seleucids started using them around 200 B.C.
    Are Thureophoroi and horakitai stronger in your mod, as they were in reality?
    Are you sure that the Seleucids had Asthetairoi and Argyraspidai?
    I don't think that Hoplites should use the short phalanx, the shieldwall is much more realistic. But I think that Iphikratean Hoplites can have it. Are these Thorakitai Hoplitai the more armoured version of the Iphikratean ones?
    I think there are some more, but I can't say what they are at the moment.
    Btw, where you really beaten in that campaign or is that just fluff?

  6. #6
    RedFox's Avatar When it's done.™
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    Default Re: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    Does your mod still include the Seleucid Legionarys?
    No, those are replaced by Hypaspists, Seleucids needed a new unit so, if Macedon can get them, why can't the Seleucids?

    Does your mod include Hysteroi Pezhetairoi, i.e. the macedonian reformed phalanx that was invented during the wars with the romans?
    Could you PM me some details about them? How they fought and what's the difference between them and the regular Pezhetairoi.

    Does your mod make Seleucid Cataphraktoi dependent on marian's reform
    Yes, Marian Reforms, same goes for Agema Hypaspists.

    Are Thureophoroi and horakitai stronger in your mod, as they were in reality?
    Thureophoroi has 14 defense, Thorakitai has 21 defense, both are skirmisher spearmen, though Thorakitai only have 2-3 javelins and are mainly meant for close combat and protecting the flanks.

    Are you sure that the Seleucids had Asthetairoi and Argyraspidai?
    Only Macedon and Epirus has Asthetairoi, Seleucids have Argyraspidai (Silver Shield Pikemen), other than that I have no real data on Argyraspidai Hypaspists, but I still included them because seleucids were weak enough.

    I don't think that Hoplites should use the short phalanx, the shieldwall is much more realistic. But I think that Iphikratean Hoplites can have it. Are these Thorakitai Hoplitai the more armoured version of the Iphikratean ones?
    Those were phalangites, not regular hoplites, they used much longer spears and fought underhand, though Macedonians used even longer pikes than they did. And yes, Thorakitai Phalangites are same as Iphikratean Phalangites, only +1 attack and a lot more defense.


    If you have more questions then I will be glad to answer them, especially if you have any significant data on the Pikemen etc.
    If it wouldn't be much trouble, you could post a complete list of Successor pikemen and their relative strengths, would help quite a lot, as I'm developing a mid-tier unit for Macedonians and don't really have any historical data to link with them.

    Cheers

  7. #7
    Locky's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    Very good redfox! Cant wait for you to release your Mod.

    In relation to who asked about the Seleucian legionaries. The Argyraspidai were apparently reformed sometime around 190BC, to immitaite legionaries(Although they were already equiped like Thorakitai prior to this).

    I can give alittle info on the Silver shields Redfox. The initial numbers of the Argyraspidai were around 10000, 5000 men each. It was split up into two catagories. The Hyapapists Argyraspidai, and the Argyraspidai phalangitais. The earlier were the younger Greeks, who were fresh from their training, and acted in a similar manner to Alexander's hypapists. The latter were the older men, who were basically experianced veterans, with much skill under their belt, functioning in the manner of the stygma. The silver shields were socially elite, during any period. They hypapists were generally the sons of the phalangites, they would take thier place in the phalanx, once they aged more.

    Around the start of the RTW period, the silver shields equipment changed to reflect thier enemies and improved tactics and styles of fighting. Generally, a curiass of chainmail or scale. They essentially were equiped as Thorakitai. And probably changed name to the Thorakitai Argyraspidai, the pikemen probably retained their name to reflect little change to the stygma, aside from armour, or Thorakitai Argyraspidai phalangitai.

    They were still split into 5000 men, with their respective agema. So two Agemas, and how many ever units.

    Around 180BC, the size of the unit had been decreasing not from war, but from cost, of mainting the unit, although highly effective and deadly, proving itself, it was not cheap to upkeep this unit, this combined with a shrinking empire. So probably numbered 5000 men, and all probably emulated Thorakitai, the phalanx was left to other troops.

    It essentially faded away years before the empires callopse. The Argyraspidai were described as a deadly unit, that rarely if ever failed in it's task. They actually never faught againest the Romans, and at that battle over Asia minor they were not present, as they were been re-equiped after fighting rebels. Basically some of the best infantry to ever exist.

    So basically the Argyraspidai were deadly shock troops, easily superior to anyting Rome ever produced, and ever worthy of their title like the Asthetairoi.

  8. #8
    RedFox's Avatar When it's done.™
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    Default Re: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    Very informative post

    So, basically, if we take the game mechanics and mix them with history, we get:

    Argyraspidai Phalangitai - The Elite "Silver Shield" Phalangites
    Argyraspidai Hypaspists - Elite Hypaspists who had a little bit less skill than the Phalangitai

    Post Marian:
    Thorakitai Argyraspidai Phalangitai - Very Heavily equipped SS Phalangites (what shield did they use??)
    Argyraspidai Thorakitai - so the Hypaspists disappear completeley and change into very heavily armoured elites (spearmen?).

    Hope I got this right
    By the way, XGM - Diadochi starts in 279 BC.


    Would be really nice if we got some proper skins for the Post Marian romans, i'd aim for the HBO Rome style Post Marian Legions, seemed to be more realistic than the common Trajan style legionaries.
    So the romans would basically function the same, but the upkeep of their units is drastically lowered.

  9. #9
    Kara Kolyo's Avatar Mikhail
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    Default Re: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    Well the early roman legionaries in the ML skin pack use lorica hamata, so you can use them instead of the late ones that are in XGM now


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    Locky's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFox View Post
    Very informative post

    So, basically, if we take the game mechanics and mix them with history, we get:

    Argyraspidai Phalangitai - The Elite "Silver Shield" Phalangites
    Argyraspidai Hypaspists - Elite Hypaspists who had a little bit less skill than the Phalangitai

    Post Marian:
    Thorakitai Argyraspidai Phalangitai - Very Heavily equipped SS Phalangites (what shield did they use??)
    Argyraspidai Thorakitai - so the Hypaspists disappear completeley and change into very heavily armoured elites (spearmen?).

    Hope I got this right
    By the way, XGM - Diadochi starts in 279 BC.


    Would be really nice if we got some proper skins for the Post Marian romans, i'd aim for the HBO Rome style Post Marian Legions, seemed to be more realistic than the common Trajan style legionaries.
    So the romans would basically function the same, but the upkeep of their units is drastically lowered.
    Yes

    The Hypapistai turned into heavily armoured spearman, i guess they could've Been Called Argyraspidai Hypapistai Thorakitai

    Although Thorakitai implies heavily armoured, and we're not sure what hypapistai means. And because Greeks named their soldiers after their equipment and what not, it doesn't really matter if they're not called Hypapistai, because Thorakitai replaces thier old name i guess in this case. They used short spears with large balded heads, or the hellenised version of the Gaelatian long sword, they were very proficient with both. I'm not entirely sure if they used javelins, their equipment was based of the situation



    The latter Phalangitai probably used the smaller version of the aspis( i have seen a smaller oval version of the aspis, made in the same manner as the aspis, but alot smaller and more sutied to soldiers using long spears, i'm not sure whever or not this shield is historically real), or the Theuos.

    Probably the earlier because it is slightly stronger, and can be slung off the shoulder, and the Seleucians often had to deal with many enemy horse archers, and slingers and other missile troops, the Theuos would break more easily, even if it covered a larger part of the body, at the expense of durability. Plus the silver shields wore scale curiass, the shield was mainly to protect the arm, and the theuos would get in the way of weilding the sarissa.

    Hope that helps.

    Cool 279BC, i saw you were using EB's 2 hadned pike animations? You gonig to include them if you get permission?

  11. #11
    RedFox's Avatar When it's done.™
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    Default Re: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    The 2h_pikemen were released to the public not long ago, so yeah, i'm using those.

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    Locky's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    Oh, didn't realise that.

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    Here's a short list of all Pikemen types I know:
    Levy Phalangites:
    The Seleucids used Eastern Natives and called their unit Pantodapoi Phalangitai. Was not so well equipped as currently shown in XGM. From what I know of EB, They had not much more than a shield, some leather armour and their Sarissa, plus an axe or a short sword. Same goes for the Ptolemys, but they used Egyptian natives which were feared for their revolts, which were the reason why the Ptolemys brought large groups of Celts(Galatians), Jews and Macedonians into Egypt to fight against the rebells.
    The western Greeks (Macedon, Epirus etc.) used Greeks for the phalanx, which were a bit (but not significantly) better equipped than their eastern cousins.

    Chalkaspidai (bronze shields): I don't know if they were used during the XGM timeframe by all Diadochi, but they were definatly used by the Pontos and the early Succesors.
    They were inbetween the levys and Pezhetairoi. I don't know much about them, only that they were the best phalangites the Pontic king could bring in... Shows how bad the Pontic phalanx was.

    Kleruchikoi Phalangitai: Greeks and Macedonians which immigrated east and where given land by the Diadochii. In exchange, they fought for them as Phalangites and cavalry. They had less training than the Pezhetairoi, as they most of the time had to manage their estates, but their equipment was the same. An exception are the Egyptian elite kleruchikoi, which had slaves and managers given to them by the Ptolemaic king so they could prepare for fighting. But those "Elites" where not as good as the famed Asthetairoi and Argyraspidai. Kleuchikoi had large farming estates, and keeping them in service for a long time can cause large agricultural damage.

    Pezhetairoi: The mainstay of all Hellenistic Armys, these soldiers where pretty wealthy. Practically the same as the Kleruchikoi, but better training. I thin they used a metal cuirass, but it could have been a linothorax, too. I will see what it was.

    Hysteroi Pezhetairoi: They were formed during the Macedonian wars against the Romans. They had chainmail and their shield was wooden with a metal layer, which proved a better protection than the linothorax or cuirass armour of other phalangites. They also had a much better drill and training than then standard Pezhetairoi and were only used by the macedonians and replaced both the Pezhetairoi and Argyraspidai. Didn't help the Macedonians against the pesky Romans though...

    Asthetairoi: As far as I know, they weren't used after Alexander's death. The Macedonians and Seleucids both used the Argyraspidai. The Ptolemys didn't.

    Argyraspidai: The famed elite of the Phalangitai. They declined over the years, as the hellenistic states couldn't pay them anymore. It was the same case with the Hetairoi.

    I think these are all. Have in mind that I have a lot of my information form the Europa Barbarorum mod, which is the most historical accurate mod I have ever seen.

  14. #14
    RedFox's Avatar When it's done.™
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    Default Re: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    A good read indeed, gave me a few more ideas on how to balance some pikemen. Other than that, I think we'll leave Asthetairoi for the Macedonians and Argyraspidai for the Seleucids, for atleast some diversity. Mainly because Argyraspidai are slightly better than Asthetairoi, which gives the Seleucids an advantage.

    Thanks for the post

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    I'm glad that this post helped you
    Btw, when you need information on how hellenistic units were equipped: I would like to help you. You could also download the EB-Mod, but I think I am good at gathering and formulating the information
    And the Pezhetairoi wore linen curasses. Just wanted to add this.

  16. #16

    Default Re: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    EXCELLENT!!!!! I sthis likea mini mod, and when will it be out?


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  17. #17
    Ian Altano's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    I really liked this preview!
    So I ask like the post before, when will the mod be out?

  18. #18
    Ferrus's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    Hey, just curious if your prodromoi have longer spears compared to the companion calvary. Just being doin some light reading and came across the reference although they used the word "MAY be armed.." and they didnt mention measurements although i think they tend to vary.
    The wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win - Zhuge
    Aut viam inveniam aut faciam - I will either find a way or make one
    Do you know why most men die before their wives do? Because they want to!

  19. #19
    Locky's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrus View Post
    Hey, just curious if your prodromoi have longer spears compared to the companion calvary. Just being doin some light reading and came across the reference although they used the word "MAY be armed.." and they didnt mention measurements although i think they tend to vary.
    Horse men with lances generally tended to carry 3 meter long xystons, or shorter, anything longer would start to wobble, and be uncontrolable. The Hetiaro carried long lances too, redfox should fix that

  20. #20
    RedFox's Avatar When it's done.™
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    Default Re: The Battle of Isthmos - First <XGM - Diadochi> AAR

    Isthmos battle didn't have any Hetairoi in it, only Prodromoi and some Allied Cavalry.
    Hetairoi can be seen from the Raphia pictures and they do have long enough spears.
    Last edited by RedFox; June 08, 2007 at 06:15 AM.

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