Ditch lithiuania add burgundy

[Serious Spamurai]

I suggest we ditch Lithuania, they played little part in the world at the time period of this mod, also, we have no skins or anything for them, all of it was lost when we lost RTR-fan. Instead we should replace it with burgundy and possibly make the HRE into multiple factions, Europe should be more important, at the moment Europe is made up of France and the HRE, not exactly interesting.

[chapman104]

I agree bring in the armies of the grand duke !!

[otark]

Having been united with Poland during the time period, Lituania hardly can form a separate faction...

[ekklitz]

Oh, So Venice, milan, the Papal states, England, Scotland, Denmark, Spain and Portugal arent in europe?

Oh what about Hungary and Poland?

Oh and Russia?


OK, I've learned something new this day.


I see this mod as a superpowers sort of thing.

I know its not Historically acurate but if anything Italy and Britain should be united. Not ripping france apart.

[Serious Spamurai]

Oh, So Venice, milan, the Papal states, England, Scotland, Denmark, Spain and Portugal arent in europe?

Oh what about Hungary and Poland?

Oh and Russia?


OK, I've learned something new this day.


I see this mod as a superpowers sort of thing.

I know its not Historically acurate but if anything Italy and Britain should be united. Not ripping france apart.

Well actually, at the time of this mod Milan was part of the HRE, so was a large part of Denmark, most of Hungary was under ottoman rule, the "Russia" faction in this mod is Muscovy and controlled mostly Moscow, Poland controlled western Russia. But anyway. What I meant was central Europe, ideally the HRE should be multiple factions, but there needs to be more factions in Europe proper, France and the HRE is nowhere near enough.

[sirfiggin]

Why take out one country in favour of a Duchy? It may be easier to change the HRE, I'm not sure how but somehow show that it consists of semi-independent states.:hmmm:

[Serious Spamurai]

Why take out one country in favour of a Duchy? It may be easier to change the HRE, I'm not sure how but somehow show that it consists of semi-independent states.:hmmm:

Lithuania hasn't even been made in our mod, it doesn't even exist, instead of putting in a faction that didn't really exist for a large part of the mod's time period, I propose we add in a more important one.

Burgundy = Important central European power, leading edge of the renaissance outside of Italy.

Lithuania = Poland

It's as simple as that.

[Serious Spamurai]

delete.

[Icefrisco]

Thanks Serious had I had been saying that for a long time. Of course, I do not know if we have time to do it. Are we doing it now for 3.0 or for a later release. If were doing it now I can get the names and make descriptions for burgundian units.

Oh, So Venice, milan, the Papal states, England, Scotland, Denmark, Spain and Portugal arent in europe?

Oh what about Hungary and Poland?

Oh and Russia?


OK, I've learned something new this day.


I see this mod as a superpowers sort of thing.

I know its not Historically acurate but if anything Italy and Britain should be united. Not ripping france apart.

We were just saying that we were adding burgundy not ignoring the world. Also, you might not know but Burgundy was the main reason that the Renaissance left Italy. If it werent for Burgnundy western europe would not have been fighting with cannons are guns but with swords and bows for a lot longer then they did. Burgundy changed warfare from a group of medieval lords coming together to a professional army of generals,trained officers, and men fighting for their country rather then lord.

[Serious Spamurai]

Well, burgundy can have the french/german AOR levies plus they can have copies of the French and German Professional soldiers, they can also have longbowmen. Shouldn't take too long to implement.

[justme]

Woaaaa guys... hold your horses here!!!!

I need you to focus on what we have at hand - and we've discussed this many times already


A) we're making a historical mod - not a fantasy fare (if it were fantasy I'd go to the Moria:TW forum now, a bit of LOTR is always welcome )

B) Our timeframe is 1494 to 1555

C) Because of A) and B) there is no separate Burgundy! the former Burgundian lands are divided between the HRE (the Burgundian Netherlands and the Franche Comte under his son, Philip) and France (the duchy of Burgundy per se)

D) Because of A) and B) there's no UK in the mod... the kingdoms of England and Scotland are separate

@ Ekklitz: don't worry...
E) Because of A) and B) Milan is NOT part of HRE, only nominally part of the Empire, but quite independent, Denmark is NOT part of the HRE, it's an independent kingdom (and it actually never was part of the HRE), Poland is NOT part of the HRE, it's an independent kingdom (and it's still quite powerful), Russia (or rather the Grand Duchy of Muscovy) is still in Europe and an up and coming power, Spain (or rather the Crowns of Castile and Aragon) are also independent and up and coming and Hungary isn't yet part of the Ottoman Empire - it's still independent under a Jagiellon king.

F) I agree w/ removing Lithuania as an independent faction now that RTR Fan has left the mod - I never actually separated them in the 3.0 beta



And... because I see Burgundy-fan threads springing up from time to time

Burgundy = Important central European power, leading edge of the renaissance outside of Italy.

slight correction: Burgundy = Important central European power, leading edge of the renaissance outside of Italy, BEFORE our mod's timeframe!

Please focus on what we have to do right now, or else 3.0 will never see the light of day

[Tribalista]

I'm totally in with you guys not putting in Burgundy for the moment, but saying that it isn't part of the time frame isn't really correct. The Burgundian duchy officially ended when Charles the fifth of Spain rose to the throne. That was in 1515. Burgundy then became part of the Spanish empire. It was never divided between the French and the HRE. From an other point of view you could say that the true Burgundian regency ended in 1482, when Mary of Burgundy died and her husband, Maximilian of Austria became protector of the Burgundian territories until their sun Philip the handsome was old enough to be crowned. It can be discussed whether you see Philip the handsome as a Burgundian or a Austrian Hapsburg descendant.

[Dimitri_Harkov]

I agree to ditch Lithiuania (union with poland in our time frame).

I'm a great fan of Burgundy and it's history, but it would be a waste of faction slots to include it. As soon as Maximilian was accepted as husband of Mary, Burgundy's independence was over.

better add some HRE-duchys.

[ekklitz]

IMO theres too many little factions in the mod.

Venice is reasonably small, same with milan, papal states,portugal, Scotland, Denmark, and i'm sure theres more.

All thats gonna happen is a giant steamrolling.

France - Burgundy = two more relitavley small factions.

[Serious Spamurai]

IMO theres too many little factions in the mod.

Venice is reasonably small, same with milan, papal states,portugal, Scotland, Denmark, and i'm sure theres more.

All thats gonna happen is a giant steamrolling.

France - Burgundy = two more relitavley small factions.

Perhaps because Europe was lots of little factions? Anyway, Burgundy had one of the best armies in Europe and their troops in game would different to other factions, most relied on levied troops, nobles and mercenaries, Burgundy used professional armies which were better trained than even most of the nobles. It's hard to steamroll a faction that has better troops than you.

[TWoxy]

Ha, I didn't even know we were adding new factions since RTR Fan left. Still, I'm sure we'll be able to produce a quality Burgundy faction.

[ekklitz]

Perhaps because Europe was lots of little factions? Anyway, Burgundy had one of the best armies in Europe and their troops in game would different to other factions, most relied on levied troops, nobles and mercenaries, Burgundy used professional armies which were better trained than even most of the nobles. It's hard to steamroll a faction that has better troops than you.

then burgundys gonna need some seriously rich provinces to support this.


And i was speking from a gameplay perspective.

OK a dew small factions are giood so you dont have to battle with the superpowers straight away, but more big ones are needed too.

[Serious Spamurai]

There were no big factions at this time apart from the ottomans.

[Icefrisco]

then burgundys gonna need some seriously rich provinces to support this.

It doesnt need them since historically it had them. Burgundy was the wealthiest state in Europe from 1400-1477. They were so wealthy that the expression "To Live Burgundian" means to live wealthy.(Its used in the low countries)

[ekklitz]

The Spanish are rather big, Moors too.