Takeda Katsuyori (武田勝頼) is bad general?

[WTFM-GzZ]

The Battle of Nagashino (長篠の戦い, Nagashino no Tatakai?) took place in 1575 at Nagashino Castle in the Mikawa province of Japan. The castle had been under siege by Takeda Katsuyori since the 17th of June; Okudaira Sadamasa, a Tokugawa vassal, commanded the defending force. The castle was under attack because it threatened Takeda's supply lines.

takeda cavalry all die to oda 3000 gun「鉄砲三段撃ち」?

in Akira Kurosawa(黑澤明) Kagemusha(影武者)movie

u all believe..Takeda Katsuyori (武田勝頼) is bad general?


other question:

Q1:about takeda cavalry

The cavalry charge as shown in film and literature might not have happened at all. Arabian horses were not introduced into Japan until the 1800s.
The Japanese domestic horses were not much bigger than donkeys. In the 1990s, a Japanese historian conducted a test and found that the Japanese domestic horse breed could not run faster than a human being and would not have been able to carry out any effective charge

in fact no takeda cavalry ..takeda still use many infantry army

Q2:「鉄砲三段撃ち」is lie..but oda use many gun is true.....ccccc

u all believe..Takeda Katsuyori (武田勝頼) is like movie so idiot so fool??????

[Lawrence of Arabia]

What is your source for this information? There are a lot of sources that say that it was a cavalry charge.


EDIT: And yes, I do think he is a bad general.

[Seijitai]

The Japanese domestic horses were not much bigger than donkeys. In the 1990s, a Japanese historian conducted a test and found that the Japanese domestic horse breed could not run faster than a human being and would not have been able to carry out any effective charge

in fact no takeda cavalry ..takeda still use many infantry army

Q2: 「鉄砲三段撃ち」is lie..but oda use many gun is true.....ccccc

u all believe..Takeda Katsuyori (武田勝頼) is like movie so idiot so fool??????

Q1 : There is too many records of samurai fighting on horses to say that it never happened... Japan domestic horses are smaller, that's right... But don't forget that japanese samurai were smaller in that times... As european people were... The people size was between 1m50 and 1m70 maximum (sorry, metric system and too lazy to convert it ). Here is a pic (sorry for the bad quality) from a statue of Yamauchi Kazutoyo in front of Kochi castle... The interesting thing is that this statue show the correct scale of both the horse and his master...



You can see that it is larger than a donkey... From what I've read, japanese domestic horses were about 15% smaller than arabic horses... And nearby 35% smaller than some european chivalry horses...

Q2 :

鉄砲三段撃ち is lie...

If you say so... But as I can't read 鉄砲三段撃ち I don't know what you're talking about...

Q3 : IMO, I don't think Katsuyori was a so bad general... He had a few good victories before Nagashino... Maybe the shadow of his father was too big for him... It's nearby sure that Shingen won't have fallen in the trap of Nagashino... But Katsuyori maybe lacked experience to handle a so important battle

[WTFM-GzZ]

According to recent japan historical research
Overthrew before view

if Takeda Katsuyori retreats will be oda converging attack
attack like as fort oda gun formation he know cant win
but ....

this is takeda


so he choice attack

The Battle of Nagashino (oda &Tokugawa 35,000 vs takeda 15000)

1.no takeda cavalry like fool rush~~
2.oda gun only 1000 not 3000
3. Takeda Katsuyori very Intelligent
takeda use opening wing formation(鶴翼)

use 5 times of attacks oda Two sides

1山縣昌景，2武田信廉，3 小幡信貞，4武田信豐，5馬場信房。



avoidance oda gun formation

no use cav rush toward central oda gun formation

even just attack to Oda Nobunaga General headquarters

if Takeda Katsuyori have more army...he will win....

but oda army not fool too....

Oda Nobunaga broken takeda middle side army...cut takeda army line~~~

use gun fire to 2 side....many takeda general die....

oda kill takeda 7000 ~10000(mabe more)
takeda kill 6000 oda &Tokugawa...

鉄砲3段撃ち is mean....

u play m2tw u only can 鉄砲2段撃ち

[LennStar]

If you say so... But as I can't read 鉄砲三段撃ち I don't know what you're talking about...

I would translate as 3 ranks (3 man deep) of firing guns.
teppo 3 dan fire

[Wundai]

HOW DARE YOU!

Pick the deformed people from 300 and say they are any Takeda, YOU WILL BURN ON THE STAKE HERETIC!!!

[WTFM-GzZ]

HOW DARE YOU!

Pick the deformed people from 300 and say they are any Takeda, YOU WILL BURN ON THE STAKE HERETIC!!!

okok no use 300....sorry...i fix...

i use wrong vedio..i no want BURN ON THE STAKE HERETIC (too hot)

now we again~~~~

this is takeda

[Wundai]

Takeda Has HONOR!!! NO FRIGGIN FIRE WEAPONS!!!





KATANA, NODACHI, YARI AND NAGINATA ONLY!





MUHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

[Seijitai]

I would translate as 3 ranks (3 man deep) of firing guns.
teppo 3 dan fire

Thanks !

[Dermeister]

Takeda Has HONOR!!! NO FRIGGIN FIRE WEAPONS!!!





KATANA, NODACHI, YARI AND NAGINATA ONLY!





MUHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

HE dint use bows???

[DarthLlama226]

A general would have to have been an idiot or extremly arrogant not to use any weapon availible.

The charge was defeated because the Oda came up with a way of rotating fire. Normally, a musket or arqubesier attack would consist of 2 or 3 ranks of men. First line would fire, move back and reload while the second line fires. They would cycle like that until the enemy was on top of them or some other kind of attack commenced.

The Oda figured, why not cycle down the line? By the time the end of the line was reached, the first man was ready to fire again. They could then all be on one row. Essentially, they became multi-man Gatling guns.

[Juggernaut]

Actually, almost all historians agree that "3 rank fire of Arquebus annihilating Takeda's cavalry charge" to be a myth constructed in mid-Edo jidai.
There's no primary sources mentioning such thing, and adding the various technical difficulties to that (such as battle actually lasting for 6 hours, difficulty of training a rag-tag band of mercenaries for a complex operation in a extremely short amount of time and primary sources only mentioning 1000 guns instead of 3000) it is highly unlikely such tactics were actually used.
Also Takeda's cavalry number was no different from most other daimyo's.
Only 6% percent of their army were cavalries and they were never formed into a independent cavalry unit, but always moved along with infantry, so "Takeda cavalry idiotically charging the fences" would be highly unlikely as well.

[WTFM-GzZ]

Takeda Katsuyori :

『 Every man to me all wrong~~wu~~`wrongful treatment; injustice~~~father~~they all bad bad to me(cry)』

[AngusH]

The charge was defeated because the Oda came up with a way of rotating fire. Normally, a musket or arqubesier attack would consist of 2 or 3 ranks of men. First line would fire, move back and reload while the second line fires. They would cycle like that until the enemy was on top of them or some other kind of attack commenced.

As others have said, there were just 1000 guns, and no contemporary evidence that points to a mad "lighthorse brigade" rush by the Takeda as they were gunned down in a blaze of glory. Katsuyori might not have been the greatest general in the universe, but he wasn't a fool.

The reason the Takeda lost has a lot more to do with the fact that they faced an army twice their own size and deployed in a better defensive position than the use of firearms or cavalry charges by either side. Not to mention that the Takeda were wedged, with an army on one side, and a cliff on the other, leaving no easy road to retreat, hence the heavy casualties.

The Oda figured, why not cycle down the line? By the time the end of the line was reached, the first man was ready to fire again. They could then all be on one row. Essentially, they became multi-man Gatling guns.

Nobunaga wasn't the first person to come up with this strategy. They learnt the hard way.

As for Japanese horses (not directed at you Darth), yes, they were small and slow. There is plenty of reason to believe that samurai dismounted before fighting too, and that they didn't rank men in to cavalry-only units. That's been the view of historians for a while.

There has been some discussion on this over at the samurai-archives forums a couple of months back, on both horses and mounted tactics.

[Seijitai]

Hello AngusH, always a pleasure to have you on the forum !