Initial Objective: Which path should we take?

[Elrond]

Anything along those lines is destined to failure because in order to gain enough members from the Paradox comunity there has to be as distinct change in direction and a clear vision of the future - Hex didnt need to start this commitee to come up with 'lets make a forum and see how it goes' because that is blindly obvous and if it were the best option it would have been implemented ages ago.

[Garbarsardar]

Anything along those lines is destined to failure because in order to gain enough members from the Paradox comunity there has to be as distinct change in direction and a clear vision of the future - Hex didnt need to start this commitee to come up with 'lets make a forum and see how it goes' because that is blindly obvous and if it were the best option it would have been implemented ages ago.

Sorry, I was unaware of all that. Just bring the parer and I will sign.

[Elrond]

Sorry, I was unaware of all that. Just bring the parer and I will sign.

I would expect a more intelligent comment from a new civ.

Why are you so keen on having a forum - the EU forum is performing poorly depsite a obvously large potential pool of people interested - some times small and evolutionary steps arent the best option - a revolution in the sites development which is under Ian's power (even if most of it is delgated) would still work and wouldnt turn into chaos.

[Garbarsardar]

I would expect a minimal willingness to engage in actual discussion from anyone despite his badge.

You have your mind set up and it follows that we should be all trolled into submission because you "know what's best" ?

You are very hot at creating a site ignoring the fact that we have ONE SHOT at it and ONE SHOT only.

So if we don't rush to do it by next week we are bureaucrats, correct?

This is a committee. Try to get used to the fact that there will be opinions different than yours.

[Elrond]

I would expect a minimal willingness to engage in actual discussion from anyone despite his badge.

You have your mind set up and it follows that we should be all trolled into submission because you "know what's best" ?

You are very hot at creating a site ignoring the fact that we have ONE SHOT at it and ONE SHOT only.

So if we don't rush to do it by next week we are bureaucrats, correct?

This is a committee. Try to get used to the fact that there will be opinions different than yours.

Firstly I dont think I know best, what I do believe is that a huge leap forward is needed - whether it be a sister site or a new section including several forums and huge effort to fill them with members from outside TWC.

It doesnt require 10 of us to take 30 days to come to the decision that we should add a single forum.

Whatever your reputation at TWC is you should never accuse me of trying to troll my oppinion into being implemented, it is extremly offensive, it is unprovable and is slander.

I have made it clear that although I belive that you are completly wrong on this issue, I still hold you in high regard, I would therefore prefer to be treated with at least a basic level of civility.

I always argue my opinion with forcefulness as I beleive that in allot of cases that it is neccessary for me to be heard.

You may have noticed over the past few months that I dont back down easily when I believe I am arguing for the right thing, even if most people are arguing agaisnt me - dont expect that to change anytime soon.

[Kanaric]

please avoid personal attacks, we are here to have a civil discussion and this doesn't add to the purpose.

Debate the message not the messenger. Everyones opinion needs to be shown as a valid discussion.

[Professor420]

Anything less than a full-scale effort at expansion is going to fail.

We must think about what makes a fan site attractive. The main reason is, of course, mods. With a subforum, you are not going to attract mods, you are not going to present an aura of professionalism and comprehesiveness. Imagine if the TWC forums were a subforum of RONOracle (an old ON site). No mod worth its salt would choose to have a hosted forum there, and without mods, you will attract no community. And without community infrastructure and appeal, you will never attract mods.

We must remember how TWC got its footing, and then how it pulled ahead in the race, and we must remember what TWC offers that few if any other sites offer (extensive mod-community initiatives and infrastructure). TWC pulled ahead when it became appealing to mods and actively courted them; I know the fact that TWC had such a huge member base was the reason FATW and I elected to open up forums here, despite the fact that I was a staunch SCC isolationist.

Garb is right, we only have one shot. But we must not pussyfoot this. We must take all the time we need to make sure we have a solid plan, and then execute with all our resources. A subforum is simply not a sufficient micro-cosm or model for what we are doing, there IS no microcosm or miniature for what we are doing; it is a full scale venture or no venture at all.

[Kanaric]

I agree entirely.

[Elrond]

Anything less than a full-scale effort at expansion is going to fail.

We must think about what makes a fan site attractive. The main reason is, of course, mods. With a subforum, you are not going to attract mods, you are not going to present an aura of professionalism and comprehesiveness. Imagine if the TWC forums were a subforum of RONOracle (an old ON site). No mod worth its salt would choose to have a hosted forum there, and without mods, you will attract no community. And without community infrastructure and appeal, you will never attract mods.

We must remember how TWC got its footing, and then how it pulled ahead in the race, and we must remember what TWC offers that few if any other sites offer (extensive mod-community initiatives and infrastructure). TWC pulled ahead when it became appealing to mods and actively courted them; I know the fact that TWC had such a huge member base was the reason FATW and I elected to open up forums here, despite the fact that I was a staunch SCC isolationist.

Garb is right, we only have one shot. But we must not pussyfoot this. We must take all the time we need to make sure we have a solid plan, and then execute with all our resources. A subforum is simply not a sufficient micro-cosm or model for what we are doing, there IS no microcosm or miniature for what we are doing; it is a full scale venture or no venture at all.

That is basicly what I am trying to say but explained allot better. A new site would be a carefully calculated risk but its likely benefits are enormous - A near replication of the size of the TW section at a new site is possible - even something a third of that size would be a huge success.

Its 12:30 in the UK and I must go to Bed - I will be posting again in about 11 hours.

[Gaius Baltar]

Looking at the arguements, and the obvious overlap the proposed games expansion would have with TW, I think a completly seperate site would be the best way to go. This rules out subforums, etc. The question then becomes what does the site administration want to put into the effort?

If they are not willing to fund and support an entirely seperate board then we would have to go back to step 1.

[Kanaric]

I'm asking around on the whole CA issue, so we will wait before discussing them.

[Mímirswell]

One danger in separating into an entirely new forum as opposed to an entirely new top level forum (TW community, CC community, et al.) is you risk either losing the CC community or dividing it. Yes, it is important to put "full efforts" into this; however, the CC community is vastly important in the retention of members. One of the great failures of the other ON sites is the members waxed and waned based on the proximity to the game's launch (IE build up to the launch, plateau, slow fade into oblivion). While I agree that absentee landlords played their part (I saw this first hand with a few of the ON sites), it was hardly the only reason. A thriving off-topic forum is necessary.

I think we should strongly consider the middle ground between a single subforum or an entirely new site. A top level forum provides the following benefits:

1. It's far easier to achieve technically (integration is automatic, et al.).
2. It will automatically have moderators (probably some interested individuals here) and administrators (Hex members DO like other games).
3. It's less clicks to get to (this is a very important factor).
4. We can create separate skins for the games (to keep the game's thematic differences).
5. A vibrant off-topic community.

[Kanaric]

Yes the CC community needs to be important on any expansion site, it needs to be the same CC community for each site as well I believe for any expansion to be successful.

I, for one, put almost all my posts in the Thema and its subforums. I hardly ever post in the TW subforums and i'm sure many people mostly post in the thema and other CC forums as well.

I think we should strongly consider the middle ground between a single subforum or an entirely new site. A top level forum provides the following benefits:

I wonder if its possible that each site has its own form of the "top level" yet still keeps the CC?

Like on a paradox site all the TW topics would not be there but replaced by paradox topics and the same CC would be available on all sites. I wonder if its possible to accomplish? I sounds feasible.

I agree entirely with your concept. The CC community is extremely important.

[Professor420]

Hmmm how about this.

When the user registers he must choose a theme for the forum (Paradox or TW), or if he registers from the paradox forum it automatically chooses the paradox skin as default, opposite for TWC. The CC at the Paradox forums forwards to the TWC CC, but the user still retains his theme... the CC can be part of TWC still or moved to its own ghost-world, but for all means and purposes, they'd share the same CC, it'd show up at both sites, and the theme wouldnt' change (paradox wouldn't feel like they are going to TWC for OT chat). Is this feasible, or a decent idea?

[Mímirswell]

I think both ideas are good. Feasibility I'm not so confident on. You both are talking about bold changes to the structure of the site (and/or database.) The most feasible of the ideas is to move the CC structure off TWC and try to share it among all the sites but that's well beyond easily accomplished.

The technical staff already has a few major implementations in the works and this is likely a bridge too far (at least in the time frame that's suitable for the committee). I'll point Simetrical to this thread though for final confirmation either way but let's talk as though this isn't a possibility for now.

[Gaius Baltar]

How about a new site, with its own, unique and seperate CC and CVRIA?

[Mímirswell]

How about a new site, with its own, unique and seperate CC and CVRIA?

That weakens, not empowers TWC as a whole.

[Gaius Baltar]

That weakens, not empowers TWC as a whole.

I was thinking about taking a successful formula and applying it to another site, kinda like democracy..

[Darkragnar]

How about a new site, with its own, unique and seperate CC and CVRIA?

That would mean we would have to start from sratch and forgo all the benefits we have received now after running TWC for a couple of years,

If we can we should make use of the TWC "momentum" and use a bit of that to give the new site a better chance.

[John I Tzimisces]

I personally am against the idea of severing the TWC community for any game, in the sense of creating a new site.

I do however favor Paradox games for perhaps section expansion on TWC. (yes yes wrong thread, kind of, but for the sake of example...)

That is to say, TW community, CC community, Paradox Community.