THIS FACTION IS NOT ASSURED INCLUSION - THIS IS A TOPIC FOR DISCUSSING THEIR POSSIBLE INCLUSION AND POSSIBLE DESIGN. Everything I say in it is conceptual, and subject to changes, minute or major. Oman stands, at the moment, more likelihood of inclusion than Soomro/Sindh. Sindh seems more likely for a future update, though it could hypothetically be included with little to no model/skin work for now.
Also, please feel free to offer new ideas and critiquing.
Summary: The Soomro Dynasty was a native Sindhi Dynasty that had intermarried with local Arab Landowners following the Initial Muslim conquests around 711 AD. The Arabs Rule ended with the ascension of the Soomro Dynasty from 1011 to 1351 (A total of about 300 years), both as an independent Kingdom and as Vassals of varying sovereignty. They inherited a kingdom rich in land and history, with a culture influenced by a myriad of peoples and religions. Sindhi Military is inspired by both Arab (Classical Islamic, basically) and Indian style, with only a touch of contemporary Turkish.
Status in the Mod: Soomro helps with Oman in giving meat to the under-represented Far East. Both factions have lasted for quite a long time by the standards of Middle Eastern dynasties, many of which conquered wide swathes of land yet lost them quickly (As is the case with the Ghaznavids, and to a degree the Turks). Both Dynasties have lasted for roughly 300 years, meaning they existed longer than the Ayyubids, Seljuks, Outremer, Ghaznavid, and I think the Khwarezmians too. Both are like the minor kingdoms but important players of Europe, and both offer a unique and interesting roster that would set themselves apart far more than another Turkish Emirate would. Sindh also lets players play as a Muslim Indian Faction, since the Delhi Sultanate is unplayable.
Information on their Armies:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
The cavalry represents mostly Moslem jagir cavalrymen, with some royal guard mamluks. The cavalry of the Moslem Indian army was the primary offensive arm, unlike the Medieval Hindu army where the Elephants were considered the most important part of the army.
Psiloi [Ranged units] in this army could be Hindu javelinmen, Afghan archers, or even firework throwers and grenadiers.
The blade element represents Hindu swordsmen; the two longbow elements represent large bodies of Hindu archers. Even after the establishment of Islam in most of northern India, the bulk of the population was still Hindu in many areas.
Spear: from my casual reading in the period, it isn't clear to me what the spear unit is supposed to represent.
The Moslem Indian army has a very strong blend of elements.
The primary problem of the Indians is their variety.
The Moslem Indians have an army that can do just about anything. Against any one-trick army they will do well. Against mounted they have enough speed and hitting power in their cavalry to fight light-horse armies, and enough strength in their cavalry, longbow, elephant, and psiloi-backed heavy foot to beat cavalry armies or knights.
But even though they can do anything they want, they can't do everything they want to. The danger with the Moslem Indian is not that they lack the tools to succeed in any plan; more that they can fall to an enemy with a simple, clear plan, while they are trying to do too many things.
The Cavalry are the most important arm of the Muslim Indian (Sindhi) Roster. They also likely do not fight with the bow in most cases but rather with melee [The speed and hitting power to get light cavalry]
Elephants are used, but are not as valued as Hindu Armies value them
Ranged Units are highly varied, and could include some interesting units [Naptha grenadiers, but also perhaps in the future a 'fireworks' unit that causes fear amongst foot and mounted units, but does close to 0 damage with the fireworks]
Sindhi/Muslim Indian armies were highly diverse, both ethnically/religiously, and especially unit wise. They have almost everything, but they are a jack of all trades, master of none. Ghorids are better heavy cavalry, Ghaznavids better Medium cavalry, Rajputs better Elephants/numbers. Muslim India combines all their neighbors attributes.
It's my opinion that the local Hindus/Non-Muslims formed most of the infantry and lower tiers of units. Arabs & Muslim Indians would dominate the cavalry Branch
What could be done to encourage that 'Cannot do everything' dynamic is give them a wide selection of types of units (Such as a light skirmisher as well as a more medium skirmisher), so that a Sindhi player can do almost anything, but has to decide what they are setting [their unit] out to do.
Of course, it seems like everybody gets famous for horses. All I'd take this for is that the Sindhi were like the rajastanis in being cavalry-oriented.
A Rough Concept on the Faction Roster: In a Pinch, if we wanted to include them for 1.0, their roster would pretty much be a borrowing of Abbasid and Rajput Units. If we wanted to give them a more full look, then they would not require too much work, and much of their units could be shared by other factions. Delhi I think will be able to borrow a lot of the Sindhi's, though not all (As they will borrow some from the Ghorids).
Sindh's roster borrows far more from a classical Islamic, or Arab-Persian style, than from a 'modern', Turkish style. Cavalry is their main offensive arm, and would fight more in an Arabic Style (Spear and melee weapon) than Turkish. We could go so far as to say they have no horse archers, but I wouldn't do that. I'd just limit their horse archers to the Middle Eastern practice of Volley Fire, and make them relatively rare (Like with Abbasid Armies).
Strengths:
"Have it all" roster.
Weaknesses:
A general weakness in Horse Archery
A lack of any single absolute strength [They are not the best in their region for anything in particular]
Somewhat outdated in Military compared to other Muslim Kingdoms.
Conservative Concept Roster: The Roster we'd use if we wanted to cut down on the amount of work needed dramatically. I'll mention any unit which would require a brand new mesh/texture.
Barracks
I haven't really given their barracks much thought, at least in makeup and order. http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_83b_figure_1.htm Lists some examples of units. What I'd do is give them two tiers of spearmen (one an unarmored light version, another a medium one). Both they and the Rajputs strike me as not the type to have strong spears, and the ambiguity of the author's reading about spearmen in that DBA article makes me think they were more or less a general levy, not a specific intended unit the way it was with Khwarezm/Khorasan and Ghaznavids.
We could move the Jagirs dismounted up to 4, and add in a lower class Hindu melee warrior at 3. 5 would probably be their sole serious heavy infantry (Dismounted Jagirs are medium infantry)
Barracks Tier 1: "Light Infantry" (Possibly that guy with the mace in DBA) [Could use Punjabi Mesh]
Barracks Tier 2: "Light Spearmen" (Not quite sure what they'd look like) [Not sure what Mesh]
Barracks Tier 3: Dismounted Jagir Cavalry (Sword and Shield) [Same as the Mounted]
Barracks Tier 4: "Medium Spearmen" (Also Not quite sure what they'd look like) [Not sure what mesh]
Barracks Tier 5: Not sure what Tier 5 can be. Some sort of Heavy Infantry.
Archery Range
Archery Range Tier 1: Punjabi Skirmishers & either AOR Afghan Archers (Recruitable in Sindh + Punjabi only by Sindh?) or some sort of Hindu bowmen. [Punjabi's are done, AOR afghans are done, Hindu bowmen could be the Levies with a bow]
Archery Range Tier 2: Mail-Clad Longbowmen or some sort of Composite-bow Muslim-Indian or Muslim. [Mail clad is done, not sure what the Muslim-Indian or Muslim would be.]
Medium melee cavalry with spear and sword, they'd be armored in light mail or lamellar. They could use the Ghaznavid Regulars mesh with changes to the helmet (more helmets with turbans), or possibly the East Turkomans with changes to the face [More Arab or Pakistani] and removal of the Turkish helmets in that unit.
Stables Tier 4: A Medium-heavy Melee Cavalry [Not one of the Ghulams, I think. Not sure what unit we could use. Possibly Faris lancers with changes to the helmets]
Stables Tier 5: Medium Horse Archers [Strelac's Medium Ghulams]
Stables Tier 5: Royal Ghulams [Strelac's Second Heaviest Ghulams]
A liberal take on it wouldn't be too different. We might just do less of a 'replace with an existing unit' and more of a fine touch on them. But this is treating Sindh as a Minor Kingdom good to have, but not so important that we'd want to stress out Alpha with even more work.
Delhi would be a mixture of Sindh and the Ghorids. There's a little concern with their roster being similar to the Abbasids. The differences I figure are: Faris Bowmen will be cheaper and much sooner on the cavalry tier (Tier 3 instead of tier 5) for the Abbasids, so they can field HA more liberally than the Sindhi. We could omit the Tier 4 medium-heavies, as the Sindh should get an elephant better than the AOR ones, but I would keep it as representing the upper class Jagirs, or professional 'knightly' sort of horsemen.
Also for infantry, the Abbasids have much superior infantry (Two heavy infantry, one heavy spear, one medium high disciplined spearmen vs 1 heavy infantry, 1 medium infantry, and one medium lower discipline spearmen). So I don't think there is an issue, but there may be.
And because these two and Oman share a culture and Arabic heritage, the difference will probably be that while Sindh relies on cavalry, Abbasids on Cavalry-Infantry, Omanis rely on Infantry.
Re: DISCUSSION: The Kingdom of Sindh/Soomro Dynasty
Originally Posted by Sinan
Hi Ahiga I take it you are responsible for researching this faction ?
Yup Sinan, although anyone's research will be taken into consideration and can help. I've kind of taken my hands off of Egypt because of the great research being done by other members and the concepts Alpha has in mind for his skinning/modeling.
Re: DISCUSSION: The Kingdom of Sindh/Soomro Dynasty
Originally Posted by Ahiga
Yup Sinan, although anyone's research will be taken into consideration and can help. I've kind of taken my hands off of Egypt because of the great research being done by other members and the concepts Alpha has in mind for his skinning/modeling.
So why is the research doesn't continue?
Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
Re: DISCUSSION: The Kingdom of Sindh/Soomro Dynasty
For a mod that marks itself apart from the crowd by including Indian faction(s), they do seem a bit underrepresented. I think the variety of the mod would definitely benefit from a faction like the Kingdom of Sindh, and their history (based on what Ahiga has posted - every new faction seems to highlight my ignorance of history) appears interesting enough to present a unique and vibrant alternative to 'straight' Hindu or Muslim factions.
That said, there is already plenty of tantalizing material in Broken Crescent as it is, and though the prospect of more content is never unwelcome, I have to wonder how the addition of another faction would affect the release of the mod. I know it'll be done when it's done, but I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that you've a growing fanbase who really can't wait to get their hands on the fruits of your labor. That's not meant as a critique of your pace, as I'm constantly impressed by the speed of updates and progress, just as a concern of an impatient fan!
"The enemy flees! Probably back to his palaces and prostitutes!" -Eastern faction battle announcer, Rome: Total War
Re: DISCUSSION: The Kingdom of Sindh/Soomro Dynasty
I myself being patient, I would think that this faction would be a good idea, even if it either delays 1.0 or will be included in 1.1, as it seems interesting enough and diverse as a hybrid faction, rather than being a complete clone of either indian or islam.
Re: DISCUSSION: The Kingdom of Sindh/Soomro Dynasty
There won't be any new factions for 1.0, and it will remain to be seen if we choose to feature more post 1.0. We need to complete this mod before any thoughts of what could be done in the future are pursued.
That being said, I don't see any harm in providing ideas or opinions, but realize that no other new factions will be made for 1.0, and may or may not be made for subsequent versions - We can't say for sure.
Re: DISCUSSION: The Kingdom of Sindh/Soomro Dynasty
I guess BC has enough factions of different cultures and religions,If you like to play Persian faction then play the khwarezmids,If you like to play Arabic faction then choose the Ayyubids,Abbasid caliphate,If you like to play eastern Christian faction then play the Georgians,Byz,Armenians.If you like to play western Christian faction then play The KOJ.and thank you Alpha,mirage and Ahiga and all the team for your efforts in making this great mod
George Galloway ''You don't give a damn !!!!!!!!''
Re: DISCUSSION: The Kingdom of Sindh/Soomro Dynasty
In a later release, maybe. I found no information on Buddhist Archers, nor anything specifying they'd be separate from the Hindu Archers in any of our current factions. For now we won't be re-visiting India. If we return, we can give consideration to units with some historical context.
DISCUSSION: The Kingdom of Sindh/Soomro Dynasty
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Originally Posted by Sinan
I've kind of taken my hands off of Egypt because of the great research being done by other members and the concepts Alpha has in mind for his skinning/modeling.
