European Doctrine - flawed design (Ottoman Empire only)

One of the hallmark research items (and unique) for the Ottoman Empire is the European Doctrine, which is a prerequisite for the training of the "New Model" Nizam-I Cedit Infantry, Light Infantry, and Rifles. These new units bring the Ottoman Empire's infantry on par with their European counterparts. It is made available for research with the construction of a third-tier barracks - the Drill School. The tech "European Doctrine" itself takes quite a while to research - around twelve to thirteen turns with the best of colleges you may have with a few military-specialized scholars.

However, upon completing research of "European Doctrine," NO Nizam-I Cedit units are made available for training! The are only trainable from FIFTH tier barracks, the Army Vizierate. That means that if you research "European Doctrine" soon after successfully building your third-tier Drill School -

1. You have to research Socket Bayonet to build the next, Fourth Tier Barracks - probably around 6 to 8 turns;
2. You have to build the Fourth Tier Barracks, the "Military Academy" - takes 5 turns;
3. You have to research the "New Model Bayonet Drill" tech, prerequisite for the next technology - that takes around 6 to 8 turns;
4. You have to research the next tech after that, "Reorganized Procurement," prerequisite for the Fifth Tier Barracks - that takes around 6 to 8 turns;
5. You have to build the Fifth Tier Barracks, the "Army Vizierate" - takes 4 turns;

- in order to be able to recruit Nizam-I Cedit Infantry and Light Infantry. All in all, the actual technology, and getting the buildings - takes an additional 27 to 33 turns - or to put that in perspective, thirteen to seventeen years.

Does this system make any sense? :hmm:

I know one counter-objection is simply "Don't research it until you have the buildings!" - but the huge distance between the technology for the unit and the building remains. I think the unit should have as its only prerequisite, the technology. If that means that the unit has to be made available in a Tier 3 Drill School instead of a Tier 5 Army Vizierate, then so be it. It doesn't make sense to give players a technology prematurely so as to confuse them like this.

The Sixth Tier Barracks, the "Army Staff College," and the tech "Machined Rifling" are required to recruit the third Nizam-I Cedit unit, the Nizam-I Cedit Rifles - but one can consider the rifle units a bit of a luxury and elite unit that is sensible to be made harder to access.

Off my main topic, I noticed that the "Machined Rifling" technology used to require "Machine Tools" from the Metalworking industry line of technologies - which requires a third tier Ironmaster's Forge and the enlightenment technology "Wealth of Nations," which requires a third tier Traditional University and three prerequisite economic-line enlightenment technologies. I looked at "Machined Rifling" again just now, and noticed that it doesn't require "Machine Tools" any longer on the mouse-over. Am I simply missing something, or has there been a change from the previous patches removing this requirement?

If the patches have been switching around our technology trees - I think I remember that Nizam-I Cedit Infantry and Light Infantry were available straight off from the THIRD tier Drill School (with research of "European Doctrine" of course) - the same proper tier where the technology is! If this was the case and is no longer now - WHY were the Nizam-I Cedits removed from the recruitment rosters???

Is this another case of CA royally screwing up again and adding more bugs???

Layman's version: Ottoman general receives word that the universities have compiled all the European military system and methods and he says, "Bravo! Now let's wait seventeen years until we can build this specific building before we can train these units using these methods and uniforms." :(

I know this is a confusing situation to explain and understand, but this is the clearest way I could write and illustrate it. Make sure to think a little bit after reading this OP.

Well, I think sometimes you have a technology that you don't have the capacity to utilize. That and CA simply sucks.

I personally love the Ottoman Empire, and have played them through two full campaigns now. I know exactly what you are talking about.

Yes, the technology can be researched long before you can use it.

No, this is not a problem in any way. The only "problem" that you have spent such a long, long post talking about is that the technology is too low on the tech tree, and might cause confusion because of that. Personally, when I discovered I could not recruit the new troops, went to the building browser and discovered that I needed better barracks. "Problem" solved.

All this business about bugs and CA screwing us over and all that is complete nonsense. This is, at best, a misplaced tech. Don't go spouting crazy theories over it.

1. SO CA made a little mistake. They thought balancing the game was more importance than logic.
2. Makes sense historically that European style units are not available to the Ottomans until later in the game.

ETW is an excellent game. Stop complaining about every little issue and enjoy it for what it is.

On a historical note, effective reforms of the Ottoman army toward European style armies (ie. the Nizam-ı Cedid or in English 'New Order") did not occur until the reign of Selim III. He came to power in 1789.

Does that make a little more sense on why they are not available until later?

The recruiting thing could be fixed with a bit of modding.

The machined tools vs rifling bit is more interesting, I also think there was a prerequisite before. I'm not certain why CA would change it though, seems completely minor.

Alright, so I was looking at the profiles of the leaders of my nation's allies, and noticed one of them had a female portrait. I opened her profile, looked at her stats and picture, and then suddenly I noticed that all of the traits talked about her as if she was a dude! CA strikes again!!! Instead of saying "She" they say "He"!! Can you believe it?!

Seriously though, I think I'm at that point where nothing will surprise me anymore, and I'm just going to enjoy a decent game despite its bugs and goofs. I've done it plenty of times before.

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Originally Posted by Varaaki

I personally love the Ottoman Empire, and have played them through two full campaigns now. I know exactly what you are talking about.

Yes, the technology can be researched long before you can use it.

No, this is not a problem in any way. The only "problem" that you have spent such a long, long post talking about is that the technology is too low on the tech tree, and might cause confusion because of that. Personally, when I discovered I could not recruit the new troops, went to the building browser and discovered that I needed better barracks. "Problem" solved.

All this business about bugs and CA screwing us over and all that is complete nonsense. This is, at best, a misplaced tech. Don't go spouting crazy theories over it.

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Please don't tell me what to do. Engage in discussion, not attacks.

Part of my post already covered

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... the technology can be researched long before you can use it.
... I could not recruit the new troops, went to the building browser and discovered that I needed better barracks. "Problem" solved.

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Being superfluous to our discussion, THAT statement there was too long. It doesn't contribute anything, I say politely and with no personal grudge.

My posts appear long, because I have to cover all bases for all possible objections from people who still misunderstand my posts. Try reading a Terms of Service the next time you see one. :shifty: It doesn't even compare.


Next response. Not a long post. In most moderated forums, you can't multi-post and have to combine them - and I'm making it a spoiler because of the near senselessness this specific flamer's business is becoming:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Originally Posted by KingDave

1. Stop with the tome sized posts. Notice how no one replied to you? You COULD have explained it in about 3 sentences.
2. SO CA made a little mistake. They thought balancing the game was more importance than logic.
3. Makes sense historically that European style units are not available to the Ottomans until later in the game.

ETW is an excellent game. Stop complaining about every little issue and enjoy it for what it is.

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1. I'm noticing that you're returning again with some really idiotic tirades on the length of other people's comments on some thread, in some forum that you don't need to read.

Next sentence for clarity.
Yet, you still do, pretending you're making a contribution by criticizing people for an act that hardly anyone else considers an offense.

Next sentence for clarity.
You, friend, are a flamer.

...
In over two years of TWC forum reading and participation, never, ever have I heard anyone complaining about someone else's long posts.

I've already lost your razor-thin attention span, judging by your three-sentence-attention-span.

You didn't get me angry in the slightest and this is not a personal attack - just an attack on your response. I'm just following "You reap what you sow."
King Dave:
February 01, 2009
"I stalked this forum for like 2 years before finally joining to discuss ETW..."

... you should know better.

Not one month after joining, he begins to "lol" at long posts and fart in people's faces - judgments from someone who isn't in a place to judge. One more, and you're reported. Also: one more, and I'm compiling a post exposing all of your own posts where you're basically only insulting other people ("You're an idiot." "Moron.") Also (2): You'll be deemed a straight-out troll by more than one person.

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Originally Posted by KingDave

Notice how no one replied to you?

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Now dear God, spare us from the idiocy of the hypocrites. :doh:
For whatever strange reason (trolling, period.), KingDave still felt compelled to reply. I see an IB coming for him soon. THAT I can tell from two years of experience of PARTICIPATION.

That's the last of my exchanges with this character. I didn't lose any time or effort more than is proper, and none at all of dignity, and I won't. :)

People who don't have the seriousness and the reading skill to read a few short paragraphs, carefully written, need not respond. People who listen with respect and give constructive criticism are always cool. :thumbsup2

Moderators, in case you feel this response was in any way out of line, please, please, PM me, and I would like to correct (or even delete it) myself.

Most of you don't need to read this response above. Skip.


Next response. Not a long post, and it's part quote.

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Originally Posted by Sodbuster

Alright, so I was looking at the profiles of the leaders of my nation's allies, and noticed one of them had a female portrait. I opened her profile, looked at her stats and picture, and then suddenly I noticed that all of the traits talked about her as if she was a dude! CA strikes again!!! Instead of saying "She" they say "He"!! Can you believe it?!

Seriously though, I think I'm at that point where nothing will surprise me anymore, and I'm just going to enjoy a decent game despite its bugs and goofs. I've done it plenty of times before.

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This is an excellent response. I basically left for speculation whether this was just another possible human error by CA, and this addresses that directly. I'll just take it as another of the many bugs and flaws I'm already tolerating and play the game, now. :thumbsup2

Aye, I'm playing the game, AND enjoying it for what it is. I don't need that common sense repeated to me by people like this "King" who think they're the only ones who know it!

There is nothing wrong with this. Just wait before researching it. It says quite clearly in the cards for each level of barracks what units are available and which require techs that you don't already have (red border). This is probably not a mistake and not even a significant problem.

Take other games like the civilisation series, you may need more then one tech to unlock some units.

Also it is not entirely useless. If you captured a higher level barracks then you can currently build, you would be able build any units that you have the technology for.

Honestly it seems like people are just nitpicking at this stage.

Thanks for pointing this out, Faris. Personally, I would hv laid it out as you did. It covers all bases and stops posts of the "Did you try this?" nature. :)

I, too, noticed the "misplacement". I didn't think too much of it but simply researched it at the same time as my other techs. Then again, it helped to have TWO colleges researching all techs military...

As King Dave (correctly) pointed out, the Nizam-I Cedit reforms did occur in the late 19th century. Having said that, in my Ottoman campaign, it's 1735 and Queen Victoria is ruling England :laughter: - A HUNDRED years before she historically should be!

So who's to say we can't get Nizam-I Cedit reforms earlier as well? :hmm:

My only suggestion is for CA or modders to move that tech to another later tier to conform with its appropriate building. As Faris puts it, it's quite frustrating to have researched European Doctrine and THEN waiting umpteen turns before FINALLY recruiting my Nizam-I Cedit infantry...

@ Gornard

As I said, I don't really mind this too much - I'm content knowing it's likely a mistake. I'll just pretend that the technology should be placed later than it is and wait until the proper barracks is completed.

@ mir24

Thanks - I'm just bringing this issue up just for discussion so that one day or another it may be included as a very minor fix in a mod, as you said.

Personally I think it's part of the Ottoman faction's charm, that they get European style armies later in the game.

But if they managed to capture army college presumably from more advanced European faction earlier, they could build these units, as pointed out by Gornard.
Also, as KingDave said it is historically accurate that it happens closer to 1800. than 1700.
So, I don't consider it a miss by the devs.

These guys (the line infantry) are superfluous anyway. The Janissary musketeers are better anyway, and you will have had those for at least 30 years by the time you get the Euro style infantry.

the Light inf. and Riflemen make the tech worth it though.

Janissary musketeers are not better than Nizam-i credit, except in one stat which is accuracy.

Janissary have terrible melee defence and low melee attack damage which is not bonused by bayonet tech upgrades since they use swords. Making them unsuitable holding a solid line in battle as they lose too many men to head on charges.

Using both janissaries and Nizam-i is opitmal in the late stage game, personally i use a 2 Nizam-I and 1 Janissary unit per line infantry battalion of 3 units.

Yes the tech is on the wrong tier, it should be a tier 4 tech imo.

I was considering the usefulness of the Beylik Janissary Musketeers - they do have great accuracy and high morale and they do serve as an infantry upgrade from your low-quality starting Isarelys. It is possible to just crank out Beyliks for your line and not bother with the New Model infantry, and it would work! I still want Nizam-I Cedits for my armies, if at least for the light infantry and the historical feel.

Beylik Janissary Musketeers get classed as "Elite Infantry" instead of "Line Infantry"... methinks they really were designed to be your (semi) elite infantry units. I want Nizam-I Cedits for my square formations.

It'd be best to move "European Doctrine" to Tier 4 if Nizam-I Cedits can't be moved down - so you can research that, and research/build the Tier 5 barracks required for them. I really don't care when they arrive as long as the tech tree makes sense. However, remember that the player is getting Congreve Rockets and steamships really early for the historical period - we'd just get Nizam-I Cedit infantry by 1737 instead of 1720, say, instead of 1789.

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Originally Posted by Faris ad Din

However, remember that the player is getting Congreve Rockets and steamships really early for the historical period - we'd just get Nizam-I Cedit infantry by 1737 instead of 1720, say, instead of 1789.

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Yeah, players are getting those units pretty early historically speaking. Just like the Nizam-I Cedit infantry are anachronistic until the late 18th century, if not the early 19th.

I really don't see this as a problem. Consider that the Romans had Steam Engines, chronology doesn't have too much to do with technology. This is a simulation game, so if we want to increase the technological development rate by doing whatever necessary, than it shouldn't be much of an issue.

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Originally Posted by Faris ad Din

I was considering the usefulness of the Beylik Janissary Musketeers - they do have great accuracy and high morale and they do serve as an infantry upgrade from your low-quality starting Isarelys. It is possible to just crank out Beyliks for your line and not bother with the New Model infantry, and it would work! I still want Nizam-I Cedits for my armies, if at least for the light infantry and the historical feel.

Beylik Janissary Musketeers get classed as "Elite Infantry" instead of "Line Infantry"... methinks they really were designed to be your (semi) elite infantry units. I want Nizam-I Cedits for my square formations.

It'd be best to move "European Doctrine" to Tier 4 if Nizam-I Cedits can't be moved down - so you can research that, and research/build the Tier 5 barracks required for them. I really don't care when they arrive as long as the tech tree makes sense. However, remember that the player is getting Congreve Rockets and steamships really early for the historical period - we'd just get Nizam-I Cedit infantry by 1737 instead of 1720, say, instead of 1789.

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I just got to the point where I can recruit my Nizam-I Cedit infantry and I'm contemplating replacing ALL my troops with them - no more Isarelys, Janissaries, Azars etc. Reason being, by the time of the Nizam-I Cedit reforms, the Janissaries were disbanded...

Also, I compared my 3-chevron Isarelys and they're only slightly better than the Nizam-I. Same goes for the Janissaries. Only the Grenadiers and Hand Mortar Grenadiers are significantly better...

I also hate the fact that the Janissaries look very Arabian/Aladdin-ish. In line with the Nizam-I Cedit reforms, it would've been nice to be able to field a more modern/European-looking Elite unit.

So I'm going to experiment with an almost completely modern Army comprising: General's Bodyguard, Sipahis, Deli Horsemen, Nizam-Cedit Infantry and Light Infantry (and Rifles later), 24-lber Howitzers and Artillery and Organ Guns.

I'm not too happy with the Delis and Sipahis but for lack of any other cavalry choice... *sigh*

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Originally Posted by mir24

I just got to the point where I can recruit my Nizam-I Cedit infantry and I'm contemplating replacing ALL my troops with them - no more Isarelys, Janissaries, Azars etc. Reason being, by the time of the Nizam-I Cedit reforms, the Janissaries were disbanded...

Also, I compared my 3-chevron Isarelys and they're only slightly better than the Nizam-I. Same goes for the Janissaries. Only the Grenadiers and Hand Mortar Grenadiers are significantly better...

I also hate the fact that the Janissaries look very Arabian/Aladdin-ish. In line with the Nizam-I Cedit reforms, it would've been nice to be able to field a more modern/European-looking Elite unit.

So I'm going to experiment with an almost completely modern Army comprising: General's Bodyguard, Sipahis, Deli Horsemen, Nizam-Cedit Infantry and Light Infantry (and Rifles later), 24-lber Howitzers and Artillery and Organ Guns.

I'm not too happy with the Delis and Sipahis but for lack of any other cavalry choice... *sigh*

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Mm mm, full impressive New Model Army! :D They did pretty well historically. Those Beylik and Bölük Grenadiers and Hand Mortar units have got to get a fashion change! They belong to some 1950s Technicolor musical extravaganza movie. In a modern serious movie or more historically-inspired game - nuh-uh. I will be sad to see my Janissaries go - I will see if I can mix the Beyliks and Bölük Hand Mortars together. That is, I will see if they don't clash too much visually. :sick:

The Ottomans don't get a mobile answer to other cavalry - pretty much wait for the enemy to get to you and defend with musket infantry and square formations. Otherwise, you can haul your camel warriors with you on your campaigns and the groan of dromedaries will resound in the snowy European wood and the jungles of America! :laughter:

Tell us how it goes!

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Originally Posted by Faris ad Din

One of the hallmark research items (and unique) for the Ottoman Empire is the European Doctrine, which is a prerequisite for the training of the "New Model" Nizam-I Cedit Infantry, Light Infantry, and Rifles. These new units bring the Ottoman Empire's infantry on par with their European counterparts. It is made available for research with the construction of a third-tier barracks - the Drill School. The tech "European Doctrine" itself takes quite a while to research - around twelve to thirteen turns with the best of colleges you may have with a few military-specialized scholars.

However, upon completing research of "European Doctrine," NO Nizam-I Cedit units are made available for training! The are only trainable from FIFTH tier barracks, the Army Vizierate. That means that if you research "European Doctrine" soon after successfully building your third-tier Drill School -

1. You have to research Socket Bayonet to build the next, Fourth Tier Barracks - probably around 6 to 8 turns;
2. You have to build the Fourth Tier Barracks, the "Military Academy" - takes 5 turns;
3. You have to research the "New Model Bayonet Drill" tech, prerequisite for the next technology - that takes around 6 to 8 turns;
4. You have to research the next tech after that, "Reorganized Procurement," prerequisite for the Fifth Tier Barracks - that takes around 6 to 8 turns;
5. You have to build the Fifth Tier Barracks, the "Army Vizierate" - takes 4 turns;

- in order to be able to recruit Nizam-I Cedit Infantry and Light Infantry. All in all, the actual technology, and getting the buildings - takes an additional 27 to 33 turns - or to put that in perspective, thirteen to seventeen years.

Does this system make any sense? :hmm:

I know one counter-objection is simply "Don't research it until you have the buildings!" - but the huge distance between the technology for the unit and the building remains. I think the unit should have as its only prerequisite, the technology. If that means that the unit has to be made available in a Tier 3 Drill School instead of a Tier 5 Army Vizierate, then so be it. It doesn't make sense to give players a technology prematurely so as to confuse them like this.

The Sixth Tier Barracks, the "Army Staff College," and the tech "Machined Rifling" are required to recruit the third Nizam-I Cedit unit, the Nizam-I Cedit Rifles - but one can consider the rifle units a bit of a luxury and elite unit that is sensible to be made harder to access.

Off my main topic, I noticed that the "Machined Rifling" technology used to require "Machine Tools" from the Metalworking industry line of technologies - which requires a third tier Ironmaster's Forge and the enlightenment technology "Wealth of Nations," which requires a third tier Traditional University and three prerequisite economic-line enlightenment technologies. I looked at "Machined Rifling" again just now, and noticed that it doesn't require "Machine Tools" any longer on the mouse-over. Am I simply missing something, or has there been a change from the previous patches removing this requirement?

If the patches have been switching around our technology trees - I think I remember that Nizam-I Cedit Infantry and Light Infantry were available straight off from the THIRD tier Drill School (with research of "European Doctrine" of course) - the same proper tier where the technology is! If this was the case and is no longer now - WHY were the Nizam-I Cedits removed from the recruitment rosters???

Is this another case of CA royally screwing up again and adding more bugs???

Layman's version: Ottoman general receives word that the universities have compiled all the European military system and methods and he says, "Bravo! Now let's wait seventeen years until we can build this specific building before we can train these units using these methods and uniforms." :(

I know this is a confusing situation to explain and understand, but this is the clearest way I could write and illustrate it. Make sure to think a little bit after reading this OP.

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If you want this tech early (and usable): build many colleges and research in parallel... Easy...

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Originally Posted by Slaists

If you want this tech early (and usable): build many colleges and research in parallel... Easy...

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I have five Traditional Universities, twelve Eastern Scholars - five of them in my military research center, and with military research bonus traits.

I can easily get the research to get tier 5 barracks, but you didn't understand the long OP you quoted. What I meant was, it is little redundant to place the technology so low on the technology tree, and the first building capable of making any use of it, comes around 13-17 years later.

You CANNOT, repeat, CANNOT, research techs prerequisite for one another (tech CHAIN) in parallel. Start up your game and try it - try researching
"New Model Bayonet Drill" and
"Reorganized Procurement"
at the same time.

Short story is, it is impossible. Where there is a chain, only one link can be researched at a time. I use my best military-research-specialized university to research those chain techs. Same thing goes for buildings. While you are building the next tier of barracks, you can't research any techs of the next tier in parallel. ¿Comprende, mi amigo bueno?

Aye, you can repeat the same objection other people have said here already more than once - "simply don't research it until later, or simply wait!" Sure - I am waiting!!! However, somebody could have mentioned this before I wasted 13 early research turns on this technology, useless for the next 15 years. I carefully checked the technology tree, spending hours poring over it - but I couldn't tell that the Nizam-I Cedits really were available two tiers later only. I assumed that by researching it, I would be able to recruit some of the units right away. Unfortunately, I lost my gamble that the barrack recruitment lists weren't exact. They were.

Most tech trees in most good games are intuitive and do not cause any confusion for new players. This one does.

I accept the explanation that the tech tree is just messed up in this regard, and the reason that this part of the game is unfinished also. So it isn't intentional (but if it is, the designer is a moron).