Sarmatians (eg. Roxolani, Alans) should be Indo-European, not Mongoloid

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reptilicus

I don't know what's worse,their completely retarded roster,with more Germanic units than actual Sarmatian units(and the Germanic cavalry units having better stats overall except the Agathyrsi elite cav),or the fact that the Sarmatians look Asiatic...


The only redeeming factor that i see from the review/launch version,they actually put in some Sarmatian style scale and chainmail ,in the way earlier version the Sarmatians used even Hunnic armor,even their cataphracts.


They shouldn't even be having more than a couple of Germanic units to begin with,the free Alans were quite culturally independent. EVen the Alans that migrated with the Vandals kept their identity up until the time of Belisarius' All-African party

I do have to say i am very pleased about the Agathyrsi though,and they're amazing units.

---

Totally agree. I think that historians give Germanic tribes way too much credit. They were usually little more than ruling military aristocracies in many of these scenarios. The Goths completely lacked cavalry until they subjugated the Sarmatian Taifali. The Franks can thank the Taifali and Alans for their 8th century cavalry prowess and like you mentioned...the Alans were right there with the Vandals in Africa. The fact that the Alans only have Germanic archers is laughable.

I'm also glad to see the Agathyrsi present. Quite shocked in fact....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reptilicus

The dev team leader is Hungarian after all,so totally not surprised that we see time travelling Magyars. The tech does go up till the 7th century or so ( with the exception of menaulotoi it seems >_< ),but that faction is just...too out of place :tongue:

---

I didn't want to mention this in the hope of averting one of those famous TWC Romanian-Hungarian flame wars :smile: (mentioning CA employees is also forbidden around these parts) but yeah, that's probably the reason for the game's Turanist approach towards the steppe factions. The 5th century Magyars were hunter/gatherers living in Mordovia and did not become the nomadic/horse archer Magyars until they first reached the steppelands south of the Urals and interacted with the Khazars during the 7th century.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CagatayKhan

Aryanist theory vs Turanis theory .. Wikipedie isnt reliable source. We can see all people aryan lol
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...anguagesEn.htm
Alan languges were smiliar Karachay-Bakar tukish. Karachay-Balkar are turkc people wher live in caucasia

---

Welp, here they come!

Just more reason to wait until it's on sale and pick it up then, since mods will no doubt have been released that change these issues (from troop rosters to skins)

RE DLC is there actually any point of buying culture packs when there are so many unit roster mods? I've never understood what the point of getting culture pack DLC is when mods can unlock factions and add new units to the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aenima

Just more reason to wait until it's on sale and pick it up then, since mods will no doubt have been released that change these issues (from troop rosters to skins)

RE DLC is there actually any point of buying culture packs when there are so many unit roster mods? I've never understood what the point of getting culture pack DLC is when mods can unlock factions and add new units to the game.

---

To be fair, they do more than just unlock factions. But parting with your hard earned cash for them is purely your choice. They give more depth to the factions, and as RTII has so little depth anyway need all you can get! But it depends on whether you intend to play the DLC factions or just have them in for gameplay?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darios

Totally agree. I think that historians give Germanic tribes way too much credit. They were usually little more than ruling military aristocracies in many of these scenarios. The Goths completely lacked cavalry until they subjugated the Sarmatian Taifali. The Franks can thank the Taifali and Alans for their 8th century cavalry prowess and like you mentioned...the Alans were right there with the Vandals in Africa. The fact that the Alans only have Germanic archers is laughable.

I'm also glad to see the Agathyrsi present. Quite shocked in fact....



I didn't want to mention this in the hope of averting one of those famous TWC Romanian-Hungarian flame wars :smile: (mentioning CA employees is also forbidden around these parts) but yeah, that's probably the reason for the game's Turanist approach towards the steppe factions. The 5th century Magyars were hunter/gatherers living in Mordovia and did not become the nomadic/horse archer Magyars until they first reached the steppelands south of the Urals and interacted with the Khazars during the 7th century.




Welp, here they come!

---

Very true,the Alans are often underrated on various forums even though they were quite the capable warriors and subjugators. People usually think that the Alans were the :wub: of a few Germanic tribes and the Huns,but it wasn't like that in most cases.

I was really nicely surprised when i saw the Taifali cavalry unit for the various Germanics in Attila,though i wonder if they'll give them a Germanic or Asian appearance( since we all know what's going on with the Sarmatians.........). Their stats are quite nice though,regardless of the appearance - plus they`ve got bows on top of being melee cav.

On the Agathyrsi,the elite ones are my favorite unit in the game no doubt. They are pure murdering machines :) They look beautiful with the Sarmatian robes ,falx and chain mail/scale armor too.


The worst part is,the appearance change would take a trivial amount of time,or even to create new units and balance them out. It literally took me less than 5 mins to create a full Alani roster without making them overbloated,without Germanic units and to be totally balanced for both MP and SP. I will be creating another balance thread very,very shortly after Attila's release like i've done in the past,and hopefully it'll balance out the Sarmatian units - who,as it stands are really really :wub:ing weak.

Even Moorish lancers have better charge than Sarmatian cataphracts >_<


@ Cagatay i love you m8 but old Alanian/modern Ossetian really have no similarities with Turkic except some universal loan woards in my opinion. I do speak Ossetian :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darios

I didn't want to mention this in the hope of averting one of those famous TWC Romanian-Hungarian flame wars :smile: (mentioning CA employees is also forbidden around these parts) but yeah, that's probably the reason for the game's Turanist approach towards the steppe factions. The 5th century Magyars were hunter/gatherers living in Mordovia and did not become the nomadic/horse archer Magyars until they first reached the steppelands south of the Urals and interacted with the Khazars during the 7th century.

---

Well, I´m definitely against one of those HU-RO flame wars (trust me...) , but I still would like to mention, that sometimes it just pays off expanding one´e point of view beyond the "official" and "scholarly" theories. ( I won´t mention wiki, because that site just gathers info available to most)
Regarding Magyars being hunters and gatherers and then suddenly turning into horse archer nomadic peoples.... Honestly, imagine Hunor telling to Magor that Zoltán and Géza* told him they saw and heard that horse riding and using bow in war is profitable and fun, so that all magyars must leave behind gathering and need to buy horses, learn riding and horse archery this summer so that they can run from pechenegs (of course with their cattles, womenfolk, elders and so on) shortly after, once those start pushing them westwards...
*Hunor, Magor , Zoltán and Géza are hungarian / magyar names
People did not just materialize out of thin air and then suddenly appear in the annals of history, neither did people just vanish entirely and got entirely absorbed. There always is a link and continuity...
Food for thought.
EDIT: On topic: it is strange even for the huns to look like mongols, though it would probably be too far fetched to demand every people to look individual

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ltd.

Well, I´m definitely against one of those HU-RO flame wars (trust me...) , but I still would like to mention, that sometimes it just pays off expanding one´e point of view beyond the "official" and "scholarly" theories. ( I won´t mention wiki, because that site just gathers info available to most)
Regarding Magyars being hunters and gatherers and then suddenly turning into horse archer nomadic peoples.... Honestly, imagine Hunor telling to Magor that Zoltán and Géza* told him they saw and heard that horse riding and using bow in war is profitable and fun, so that all magyars must leave behind gathering and need to buy horses, learn riding and horse archery this summer so that they can run from pechenegs (of course with their cattles, womenfolk, elders and so on) shortly after, once those start pushing them westwards...
*Hunor, János , Zoltán and Géza are hungarian / magyar names
People did not just materialize out of thin air and then suddenly appear in the annals of history, neither did people just vanish entirely and got entirely absorbed. There always is a link and continuity...
Food for thought.

---

You are quite right...there is a lot of linguistic and archaeological guess work involved regarding the origin of the Magyars as they do not enter the written record until the 8th century. The Mordvin hunter/gatherer theory seems credible to me because of linguistic similarities between Hungarian and Mordvin as well as Turkic linguistic influence on the Hungarian language regarding words of steppe/nomadic culture. Truth be told, your guess is probably as good (or better) than mine in this regard.

What's your opinion on the Asiatic appearance of the Magyars in game? My ex-boss is Hungarian and his theories on the origin of Hungarians are kinda out there. (We come from way beyond Mongolia...even beyond China) :)))

Am I the only one that realizes all this can be fixed with mods? And don't we already have mod tools?
We are going to have all the factions fixed. No need to panic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Basileos Antiokhos Euergetes

To be fair, they do more than just unlock factions. But parting with your hard earned cash for them is purely your choice. They give more depth to the factions, and as RTII has so little depth anyway need all you can get! But it depends on whether you intend to play the DLC factions or just have them in for gameplay?

---

I was just under the impression that beyond the factions being unlocked and soldiers added in they didn't do anything else - what features do they actually add to them?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darios

You are quite right...there is a lot of linguistic and archaeological guess work involved regarding the origin of the Magyars as they do not enter the written record until the 8th century. The Mordvin hunter/gatherer theory seems credible to me because of linguistic similarities between Hungarian and Mordvin as well as Turkic linguistic influence on the Hungarian language regarding words of steppe/nomadic culture. Truth be told, your guess is probably as good (or better) than mine in this regard.

What's your opinion on the Asiatic appearance of the Magyars in game? My ex-boss is Hungarian and his theories on the origin of Hungarians are kinda out there. (We come from way beyond Mongolia...even beyond China) :)))

---

Even beyond China ?! Then the only thing that remains is definitely extraterrestrial ;) I´d like a word or two with your ex-boss :D
Now, on a more serious note: I have no problem with a certain degree of asiatic appearance for them; those "beards" and "moustaches" make them look way too chinese and mongolian, though, imo.
Also, every nomadic faction (and their kings for that matter) looking the same is a bit intriguing as well, but as Toho put it, these things are the easiest to mend, so...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reptilicus

Very true,the Alans are often underrated on various forums even though they were quite the capable warriors and subjugators. People usually think that the Alans were the :wub: of a few Germanic tribes and the Huns,but it wasn't like that in most cases.

I was really nicely surprised when i saw the Taifali cavalry unit for the various Germanics in Attila,though i wonder if they'll give them a Germanic or Asian appearance( since we all know what's going on with the Sarmatians.........). Their stats are quite nice though,regardless of the appearance - plus they`ve got bows on top of being melee cav.

On the Agathyrsi,the elite ones are my favorite unit in the game no doubt. They are pure murdering machines :) They look beautiful with the Sarmatian robes ,falx and chain mail/scale armor too.


The worst part is,the appearance change would take a trivial amount of time,or even to create new units and balance them out. It literally took me less than 5 mins to create a full Alani roster without making them overbloated,without Germanic units and to be totally balanced for both MP and SP. I will be creating another balance thread very,very shortly after Attila's release like i've done in the past,and hopefully it'll balance out the Sarmatian units - who,as it stands are really really :wub:ing weak.

Even Moorish lancers have better charge than Sarmatian cataphracts >_<


@ Cagatay i love you m8 but old Alanian/modern Ossetian really have no similarities with Turkic except some universal loan woards in my opinion. I do speak Ossetian :cool:

---

@Repliticus I love you m8 too. i dont trolling. Guys , keep calm and listen ,

Mongoloid,caucasoid race,dna classification is wrong.Aryan myth isnt science.Someone think R1a Y dna is aryan,caucasoid,tall ,hair skinned wonderfull peole. Turkic people have C,Q mongoloid orcs.
Baskirs,kirghiz ,tukmens have %80-95 non east-north asian dna (C,Q,N) .They have it lesser than scandnavian ,finnsh.But they seem mongolid.Turkic people have coomon Turkic R1a Z93 y dna.

Descandent of central asian ,sibirian in Iron Age are slavs and turkic people. Not iranic people.;Osettian havent Scythian,sarmatian dna
Source:http://www.theapricity.com/forum/att...7&d=1358807011
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/att...6&d=1358807011
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjn-leEIT70
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1a_Y-DNA.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...an_populations
We dont know scythians lang structer. Scythian lang have turkic and aryan lang words. (more Turkic ) Scythian culture ,art ,religion are typically turkic-nomadic.
Source ; http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/scythgod.htm
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...tSourcesEn.htm
Westerns want to think All nomadic people were scythians before huns period. It is wrong... Dahae, Massagatea,Saka,Sctyhians,sarmatians ,Tocharian,Yuechi,Issodones were diffrent people.
Tocharian definetly were Indo aryan. Issodenes (wu-sun) are turkic.Others are unclear. Maybe there are proto turcic-aryan mix culture or languge

Karachay say Alan themselves.. I send nice Karachay trukic song :d
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW9WdfmhwFw

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShadowMassa

Looks like one of the down falls of Attila TW is the lack of units/skins. Too much copy and paste across the game. Mongoloid Alans, Caucasoid Nobatians and Axumites, Nordic-Germanic Celts of Britain, man the list goes on. LOL

---

I don't have a problem with Caucasoid Axumites, as long as they're black, that is. Modern day Ethiopians certainly have Caucasoid features.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CagatayKhan

@Repliticus I love you m8 too. i dont trolling. Guys , keep calm and listen ,

Mongoloid,caucasoid race,dna classification is wrong.Aryan myth isnt science.Someone think R1a Y dna is aryan,caucasoid,tall ,hair skinned wonderfull peole. Turkic people have C,Q mongoloid orcs.
Baskirs,kirghiz ,tukmens have %80-95 non east-north asian dna (C,Q,N) .They have it lesser than scandnavian ,finnsh.But they seem mongolid.Turkic people have coomon Turkic R1a Z93 y dna.

Descandent of central asian ,sibirian in Iron Age are slavs and turkic people. Not iranic people.;Osettian havent Scythian,sarmatian dna
Source:http://www.theapricity.com/forum/att...7&d=1358807011
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/att...6&d=1358807011
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjn-leEIT70
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1a_Y-DNA.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...an_populations
We dont know scythians lang structer. Scythian lang have turkic and aryan lang words. (more Turkic ) Scythian culture ,art ,religion are typically turkic-nomadic.
Source ; http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/scythgod.htm
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...tSourcesEn.htm
Westerns want to think All nomadic people were scythians before huns period. It is wrong... Dahae, Massagatea,Saka,Sctyhians,sarmatians ,Tocharian,Yuechi,Issodones were diffrent people.
Tocharian definetly were Indo aryan. Issodenes (wu-sun) are turkic.Others are unclear. Maybe there are proto turcic-aryan mix culture or languge

---

DNA analyses are very complicated to connect to ethnic or cultural terms. Regarding features, according to the stuff I've read on Scythians and Sarmatians, the Massagetae, Saka, Sarmatians etc. had features resembling modern day Eastern Europeans and/or Indians, depending on regions. I've never seen any evidence that ancient Scythian languages had Turkic words.
If you want to argue about word origins, and any of the other stuff in general, please use peer-reviewed academic literature, and not internet fora or some treatises written by politicians or engineers (or other unqualified people; just saying this pre-emptively because such works have been cited here in the past), especially seeing as this topic is so political.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Toho

Am I the only one that realizes all this can be fixed with mods? And don't we already have mod tools?
We are going to have all the factions fixed. No need to panic.

---

The kind of excuse CA loves to hear...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yayattasa

The kind of excuse CA loves to hear...

---

Yup. For that reason, I have yet to play a mod for Rome 2. MP is very important to me and I prefer pestering CA until they get the game done right. Truth be told, they did eventually do a good job with most of the game's factions.

I sincerely hope that CA is listening because this is a very serious issue. The Alani are the only playable Sarmatian faction in the game and deserve to be given the same amount of attention that was given to the Germanic and Roman factions. I'm more or less fine with their units (can even tolerate the Germanic archers) but Sarmatians with Hunnic appearance is a serious buzz kill and kinda ruins the main faction that I am interested in playing.

Caucausoid Axumites....Really? For the love of god why. They even patched in better African agents and generals in Rome 2.

Mods? CA got money, but should modders finnish game for free?
Why CA can't finnish games in release day? Factions aren't complete and unique. Minor factions are copy/paste from campaign factions. There are only 4 cultures in game and CA deicided to copy them proportion for minor factions, so we have minor factions the same as Huns (Sarmatian tribes) and Sassanians (Near East and North Africa).

II remember that in Barbarian Invasion 1 had more cultures than Attila (BI2).
Cultures with different roisters from BI1:
- Roman,
- German,
- Celtic!
- Slavic!
- Sassanian,
- Sarmatian!
- Berber!
- Hun

In Attila there are only:
- Roman,
- German (for Celt, too),
- Nordic German,
- Sassanian (for Berbers, too),
- Hun (for Sarmatian, too).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reptilicus

I don't know what's worse,their completely retarded roster,with more Germanic units than actual Sarmatian units(and the Germanic cavalry units having better stats overall except the Agathyrsi elite cav),or the fact that the Sarmatians look Asiatic...


The only redeeming factor that i see from the review/launch version,they actually put in some Sarmatian style scale and chainmail ,in the way earlier version the Sarmatians used even Hunnic armor,even their cataphracts.


They shouldn't even be having more than a couple of Germanic units to begin with,the free Alans were quite culturally independent. EVen the Alans that migrated with the Vandals kept their identity up until the time of Belisarius' All-African party

I do have to say i am very pleased about the Agathyrsi though,and they're amazing units.

---

I have to agree with everything said above.

Current Alans roster and look of units realy makes me feel sick.

I suggest everyone not to take CagatayKhan seriously. However in the contrary Turkish people have nothing to do with Turkish nomads except they were ruled by a Turkic nomad minority for centuries...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hae_Shin

I suggest everyone not to take CagatayKhan seriously. However in the contrary Turkish people have nothing to do with Turkish nomads except they were ruled by a Turkic nomad minority for centuries...

---

lol .. you have supernatural abiltiy. You can know my mind. Do you know Chiniese source about avars? Alans were Gouche, Tiele... I think you can be ultra nationalist a chiniesee. What do you think smally ataulfs say taller,blonde ,hndsome indo aryan? Western claim indo-aryan Fins, Wu-sun, Sumerian ,Hatti .. We know they werent indo -aryan now. Western 's registry is awfull about history grab..I'm showing the scientific evidence. Indo Aryan myth occured by colonist Western country . Hitler rised this myth for his ideology..You said everything delusions... Your proof is Alans,scythian were blonde caucasoid people. Just indo aryan people blonde? Fins,Kiphak,Cumans,Magyar? Russian said polvets to Kipchak. Polevets mean blonde. Russian are very blonde people .Russian said blonde to Kipchak.

More proof
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/amaz...evidence/1471/

Blonde people? Who said that? People say, overall, the sarmatian peoples were of iranian stock. That does not equate to being blonde.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CagatayKhan

lol .. you have supernatural abiltiy. You can know my mind. Do you know Chiniese source about avars? Avars were Gouche, Tiele... I think you can be ultra nationalist a chiniesee. What do you think smally ataulfs say taller,blonde ,hndsome indo aryan? Western claim indo-aryan Fins, Wu-sun, Sumerian ,Hatti .. We know they werent indo -aryan now. Western 's registry is awfull about history grab..I'm showing the scientific evidence. Indo Aryan myth occured by colonist Western country . Hitler rised this myth for his ideology..You said everything delusions... Your proof is Alans,scythian were blonde caucasoid people. Just indo aryan people blonde? Fins,Kiphak,Cumans,Magyar? Russian said polvets to Kipchak. Polevets mean blonde. Russian are very blonde people .Russian said blonde to Kipchak.

---

I really don't feel like lecturing another Turanist on how steppe tribes ALWAYS absorbed tribes/peoples whom they conquered into their confederacies. Let's just say that by the time of the Mongol invasion, the Kipchaks had become somewhat Slavicized. Ex: The Kipchak leaders at the Battle of the Kalka River were named Danylo and Yurii.

Something similar even happened to the Huns. The Huns of the 440s probably appeared more Germanic than Asiatic and largely fought on foot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yayattasa

Blonde people? Who said that? People say, overall, the sarmatian peoples were of iranian stock. That does not equate to being blonde.

---

Exactly