Why were 20 people shot dead and 24 injured in El Paso today, and what’s causing the recent trend since the 90s of mass shootings and massacres.

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Originally Posted by Legio_Italica

Not to jump on the bandwagon of who killed more people, but let’s not forget communist China killing 60-100 million plus Chinese; difference being the regime is very much still around and ascendant as opposed to historical.

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Already included in the statistics up to 1987.

It is worth noting that students are now going to school at a video game level. Have fun.

I mean. Really.

So what are people saying here? That fascism is fine because they didn't kill quite as many millions of people as the Communists did? Because this bizarre dick measuring contest between two hateful and murderous ideologies is strange to say the least.

Are people aware that neither system is a particularly good idea in practice?

Or... is this some kind of dead cat bounce strategy from our far/alt-right friends?

No. They're saying that their dislike for Antifa - a group known to have a strong militant communist/anarchist presence - is based, at least in part, on the knowledge that communism has proven itself to be one of the most vicious and destructive political positions in human history.

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Originally Posted by ep1c_fail

No. They're saying that their dislike for Antifa - a group known to have a strong militant communist/anarchist presence - is based, at least in part, on the knowledge that communism has proven itself to be one of the most vicious and destructive political positions in human history.

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You'll not get any argument from me that Communism is a terrible idea. However, surely you can't be so partisan to realise that your statement can easily be reversed to incorporate the far/alt-right and fascism. For example...

"They're saying that their dislike for far/alt-right - a group known to have a strong militant white supremacist/Neo-Nazi presence - is based, at least in part, on the knowledge that fascism has proven itself to be one of the most vicious and destructive political positions in human history."

Which is why the "Who killed more?" conversation was weird to say the least...

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Originally Posted by Elfdude

How the hell do you make that leap? Regime which killed more than fascists combined? BS dude. Do you even know what you're saying?

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It is actually conventional knowledge that internationalist communist regime in USSR killed more people then all Axis countries combined.

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Originally Posted by Bob69Joe

Solzhenitsyn is a counter voice to the 1920s NYTimes newspaper journalists and more, gushing praises of the Soviets as the highest progression of governing humanity.

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Really? I guess you haven't read Solzhenitsyn. He exposed the horrors of communism in Russia, but - according to the religious conservative, both communism and capitalism are equally repulsive.
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For those who believe in divine intervention, allow me to make a "soccer" analogy. Let's us say, if Solzhenitsyn is David Beckham, Lucia is the Ronaldo of the reactionary religious brigade. The W.E. know it well,
What Happened at Fatima - Washington Examiner

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HERE'S A CURIOUS THOUGHT. Maybe the single most important person in the 20th century's long struggle against communism wasn't Ronald Reagan. Maybe it wasn't Karol Wojtyla or Margaret Thatcher, Lech Walesa or Václav Havel, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn or Mikhail Gorbachev. Maybe it wasn't anyone whose name might leap to a cold warrior's mind--for the most important figure in that long, dark struggle might have been a 10-year-old girl named Lucia dos Santos.
You remember her, of course. It was Lucia who went out one day in 1917 with her cousins Francisco and Jacinta Martos to tend the family's sheep--and ended up having a talk about Godless Russia with the Blessed Virgin Mary near a little place in northern Portugal called Fatima.
"Russia will spread its errors throughout the world, raising up wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, and various nations will be annihilated," the Blessed Virgin warned in 1917.

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In the historical perspective of the 20th century, the Marian apparitions in Fatima and in the Medjugorje /Croacia fueled both the the anticommunist struggle and the nationalisms in Europe and around the world.
The Fatima miracle and Fatima movement worldwide was and still is an anticommunist crusade, aimed at opposing the spread of communism. In Chile under Pinochet, the statue of Our Lady stepped in. In the dictatorial Brazil, the Brazilian Society For the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property welcomed the "Pilgrim Statue of Our Lady of Fatima which had miraculously shed tears in New Orleans, USA". (The American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property was founded in the United States in 1973). In 1957-66, the replica of the Black Madonna Queen of Poland was touring the country to mobilize anti communists forces. The Marian apparitions were to occur in Russia at the moment of the collapse of communism. In 1987 the Our Lady visited Ukraine...

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Originally Posted by TheLeft

You'll not get any argument from me that Communism is a terrible idea. However, surely you can't be so partisan to realise that your statement can easily be reversed to incorporate the far/alt-right and fascism. For example...

"They're saying that their dislike for far/alt-right - a group known to have a strong militant white supremacist/Neo-Nazi presence - is based, at least in part, on the knowledge that fascism has proven itself to be one of the most vicious and destructive political positions in human history."

Which is why the "Who killed more?" conversation was weird to say the least...

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As has been repeatedly explained, criticizing Antifa is not tantamount to an endorsement of fascism.

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Originally Posted by ep1c_fail

As has been repeatedly explained, criticising White Supremacy & Neo-Nazism is not tantamount to an endorsement of Communism.

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FYP

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Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven

We are not talking about an intellectual stance against a specific political model.

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I think we are... anyway, from a previous post, International Journal of Communication 13(2019), 297–318
From Twitter to Charlottesville:Analyzing the Fighting Words Between the Alt-Right and Antifa
Full Text: PDF

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..In many respects, Antifa is a defender of human rights in this story. Thus, it is difficult to apply the concept of moral disengagement to a movement that is compelled to resist and counter hate. But by framing itself as the sole force that can stand up to fascists in the face of police inaction, Antifa also elevates its campaign to that of freedom fighters in a corrupt state. Followers of that message, no matter how well intentioned, may embrace the notion that “resistance” is effectively a justified call to arms.
For the Proud Boys/Oath Keepers, these factions have not only rationalized their underlying cultural intolerance as some form of patriotic nationalism (“blood and soil”) but also raised themselves to the status of army-like defenders. Moreover, their rhetoric about left-wing America as a “cancer” and “disease” is one that strategically dehumanizes the enemy as it condemns it. Bandura (1990) established how dehumanization of one’s adversary allows an offender to absolve itself of any reprehensible behavior (p. 180).

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I don't appreciate extremists, but it seems to me that for the right, the "antifa" represents the global political left, because they often demonstrate against the fascist right. That's the reason why the conservative propaganda is always trying to find acts of "antifa violence" to ascribe their own issues with white nationalism and extremism to the left, and let's be fair, with little to no evidence of criminal action.
On the contrary, the American domestic terrorism is almost exclusively right wing. As we know, the white supremacists killed at least 50 people or more in the US in 2018, and they have been tied to a long list of massacres: Pittsburgh, Santa Fe-Texas, Poway- California, Jeffersontown- Kentucky, aztec-New Mexico.
So, don't tell me that the white nationalism/far right extremism is innocuous.
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What about the American " Antifa"?
Examining Whether the Terrorism Label Applies to Antifa

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But even if elements that participate in the antifa movement espouse political violence to oppose white supremacists, that doesn't make it a terrorist group

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Originally Posted by TheLeft

FYP

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At no point did anyone assume that your criticism of the far-right was an endorsement of communism. You (and others) framed yourselves as communist apologists by openly seeking to minimize the extremism and militancy associated with Anitfa via your implications that it merely represented "slightly centre-left" views and that it was generic or "catch-all term" for "a variety of left-wing groups". In response, evidence, including death toll statistics, were supplied to rebuke such claims.

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Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer

It is actually conventional knowledge that internationalist communist regime in USSR killed more people then all Axis countries combined.

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Both stalinism and maoism are corrupted communism which fall under the curtain of fascism. You could be accurate in saying that they started off as communist and became fascist but no more so than saying nazi's started off from a free country.

Ok I’ll bite. What’s “uncorrupted” communism?

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Originally Posted by Legio_Italica

Ok I’ll bite. What’s “uncorrupted” communism?

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I guess it would a system where there is absolute transparency where communist ideas are actually applied in policies without the desire to create a class around a leader that feeds off the commoners.

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Originally Posted by Legio_Italica

Ok I’ll bite. What’s “uncorrupted” communism?

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An ideological fantasy.

Back to the subject. According to a Health and Human Services (HHS) directive on 5 August... US mental health staff warned not to contradict Trump after mass shootings

If you don't contradict lunatics, they like you.

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Originally Posted by Elfdude

Both stalinism and maoism are corrupted communism which fall under the curtain of fascism. You could be accurate in saying that they started off as communist and became fascist but no more so than saying nazi's started off from a free country.

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Just so we're clear, you're not saying that Stalinism and Maoism are fascist. Right?

It’d be more fair to be critical of authoritarianism.

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Originally Posted by Aexodus

Just so we're clear, you're not saying that Stalinism and Maoism are fascist. Right?

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I'm not really into a semantic debate on this. https://yale.universitypressscholars...497-chapter-24

Whether or not Stalin was a "communist" or Mao was a "communist" is highly debatable. They were undeniably totalitarian dictators who both eschewed the communist principles which had led to their rise once they gained power in an effort to consolidate said power.

Hallmarks of Fascism:
1. Regimentation of class and society - This is particularly obvious with regards to how both Stalin and Mao organized their governance structures
2. Forcible suppression of opposition - Need I explain this?
3. Dictorial Power - Dictator for life anyone?
4. Strong Nationalism - Need I explain this?
5. While both lacked the characteristic roman style both elevated what they deemed to be ideal character traits associated with their brand of nationalism

These all depart from traditional communism egregiously -

1. Marxism is not a societal prescription but rather a method of understanding power structures in society
2. Communism which is applied marxism negates class structures - Maoism/Stalin does not do this, in fact they re-establish new class structures
3. Nationalization vs Socialism - Communism specifically aims for the socialization of the means of production, not the nationalization of it which merely changes which class has control of it
4. Anarchism vs Totalitarianism - Communism is strongly associated with anarchism in terms of an official governance in that just like class structure governance hierarchy must also be abolished

Even if we look at leninism which stalinism rebuked we see that Lenin was very specific that his government was not a communist government but rather a precusor, the use of totalitarian fascism was necessary to eliminate what he viewed as parasites waiting to re-establish traditional class rule, his idea was to eventually create a democratic socialist state, when and where he lost sight of that is anyone's guess. Maoism and the "communist" revolution in china suffered from similar pitfalls, neither were supposed to be considered their communist utopia but merely the only reasonable way men could conceive of to get there. As history tells us it's unlikely that the current or future outcomes in these society were what any of the framer had in mind.

So while yes, Communism remains a complete theory which does not traditionally exist per se the closest representations of true communism we can see today are in the so-called democratic socialist states (poor nomenclature) which feature mixed market economies and strong government intervention with regards to economic opportunity.

Which is to say, I have no problem with the concept of antifascism being associated with popular communist movements of the past (really that's a stretch as the only thing they've taken from it is the name and the opposition of totalitarian white nationalism) and I think any attempt to Pivot and give credit for so-called "Communist" Regimes' action to the current anti-fascist movements is utterly nonsensical.

On the other hand you have direct linkages between current totalitarian white nationalist movements and the NAZI's of old, they embrace directly the ideology. I would be quite critical if someone was to tell me that Stalin was onto something, but I have no worry that modern antifa is attempting a redux of stalinism in the US or Europe for that matter. There is a clear linkage between these shootings and white nationalism and far-right extremists. There is no such correlation between these actions and far-left and while I do think far-left extremism is theoretically possible I do not think in the current US it exists as anything more than a theory. If Antifa ever start mass murders and posting stalin manifestos I'll stop calling out poor logic trying to call both sides "just as bad". In the end such an attempt is idiotic and baseless, little more than a lie one tells themselves to avoid the moral and ethical ramifications of their crappy beliefs.

Very good post, Elfdude. Just a side note, my two cents,

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the closest representations of true communism we can see today are in the so-called democratic socialist states (poor nomenclature) which feature mixed market economies and strong government intervention with regards to economic opportunity.

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In Europe, democratic socialism and communism are completely different and mutually exclusive ideologies.
Corrupted or not corrupted, communism is/remains a totalitarian ideology. Let's not confuse communism with democratic socialism which is exactly what it means: deeply democratic. In other words, your freedom of expression and the right to vote remains untouchable. By the power of vote, you can change policies or governments at any time. In my opinion, democracy shouldn't vote itself out of existence. I think it might happen, but I wouldn't recommend it.
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I would like to insist on this point. For example, our government is a center- leftist government. The Socialist Party is a centrist Party. There is an informal alliance with the Left Bloc (more to the left, but still democratic) and the Communist Party. (a very moderate, old and mature party, but well, it's communist).
But guess what, it worked. During the last four years, everything went relatively well, the government enjoys a strong support of the people. There are no populist, illiberal, or nazi parties. The legislative election of 2019 will be held on October 2019. So, it comes as no surprise, therefore,
Portugal PM says open to new alliance with far left | Euronews

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Portugal's prime minister said on Wednesday he is ready to renew his Socialist party's alliance with two far-left parties following a general election in October.
..."While we are not in 2015, I would take the same decision for the simple reason that the (political) solution has been good, the results have been good in their entirety," Prime Minister Antonio Costa told parliament during the last debate before the summer recess.

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The Financial Times highly praises the government, Portugal: a European path out of austerity? | Financial Times

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Mr Costa is on course for re-election this year, having presided over an economic turnround that has restored confidence to Portugal, a country that the European debt crisis brought to its knees. Unemployment has halved to 6.7 per cent and the budget deficit could be eliminated this year for the first time in over 40 years.
...Portugal will also be an important voice in a highly charged debate about overhauling the eurozone’s fiscal rules. Mário Centeno, Portugal's finance minister,stands at the centre of EU economic policymaking as president of the Eurogroup of finance ministers.
His election to the role, seen as recognition of his fiscal success, came after Wolfgang Schäuble, then German finance minister, described him as the “Cristiano Ronaldo” of his EU peers, after the Portuguese football star

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That is to say, I don't understand the American fear of the left. It doesn't make sense.