Re: Greece's Snap elections
Just to add to the list, ND is also opposed to legalizing same-sex marriage and in separating church and state. Their constant move towards the right is worrying to say the least.
Re: Greece's Snap elections
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Braindead Colonel
"Fascist" is indeed a word that is often carelessly thrown around, but I don't use it lightly.
Waaait there! I have no love for ND, nor I'm going to vote them, but I disagree with most of the list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Braindead Colonel
-Direct intervention in judicial matters (Golden Dawn arrests, pm bribery case, Aegean Oil smuggling case etc...)
-Blatant support of local oligarchs (fire-sale of state property and businesses (Hellenikon, OPAP etc...) for cents on the dollar).
-Placing business interests above environmental and health effects on entire communities (Grammatiko and Keratea landfills, Chalkidiki gold-mines etc...), and violently suppressing their protests.
-Excessive state funding of professional sports and particularly soccer, a favorite tool of misdirection by totalitarian regimes.
-Complete control of traditional mass media, with the state television channel recently cleansed of all "subversive elements", while private media is owned by the same oligarchs the government supports. Refusal to have a televised debate with the opposition, and instead trying to pass their message through scripted "interviews" with the state television channel.
- Intervention on judicial matters: :huh: ND didn't interfere directly or even indirectly in arresting the terrorist core of Golden Dawn. One of their own killed a person in front of 20 policemen and soon evidence was brought to light that they have orchestrated 9 more such attacks. Then while the police were searching the houses of the terrorists, they found guns and other incriminating stuff.
- True, but that's hardly fascist. It's corruption plain and simple and SYRIZA, Pasok, etc are not above it.
- I 100% agree with Chalkidiki gold mines. If anything I accuse the previous governments and local politicians that capitalized on sentimentality and stop such an important source from operating. Because when you scare away the good business practicioners with stuff like "You either bribe me or I start whining about environmental crap and block your business" you get the shady guys that are willing to bribe. And when you're bribing the mayor, the local unionists, the local football star etc already... then you actually add a little more and you do screw up the environment.
The allegations about the HCN were crap. TVX and Eldorado Gold are respectable companies. If the government and the local mafia are worried about the environment they could make frequent checks instead of paralyzing Greek mining industry.
The landfills... there should be landfills SOMEWHERE you know. We can't send the garbage to Mars.
- About sports, I remind you that leftwing states also invested heavily in sports. Check how the Eastern Germany athletes of the 80s were.
- Media: It's the other way around. The Oligarchs that have the private media control the government. That's cleptocracy and corrupt democracy, not fascism. And it's one of the reasons I won't vote for ND. Or SYRIZA for that matter because they're propped up by a different bunch of oligarchs and their media.
Let's get away with the notion that ND governs Greece and SYRIZA tries to take control. Vardinogiannis and his cabal govern Greece through their proxies and a different cabal of multimillionaires try to take control with their SYRIZA proxies.
That's not Fascism, that's a travesty of democracy without any notion of nationalism, totalitarianism or anything other than the profit margins of 50-100 people.
Re: Greece's Snap elections
Braindead Colonel
from your list nearly all have to do with corruption or paternalism which is not a fascist charactiristics nor only found on right wing parties
Stavroforos
"Just to add to the list, ND is also opposed to legalizing same-sex marriage and in separating church and state. Their constant move towards the fright is worrying to say the least."
first i dont rembember a time where nd was supporting same sex marriage nor wanting to separate chuch and state.
kke is also againt same sex mariage ,is it also a far right part?
Re: Greece's Snap elections
Quote:
kke is also againt same sex mariage ,is it also a far right part?
At this point it's not possible to compare KKE with any other major European party. They're fossils, glorified has-beens ruled by an out of touch gerontocracy, and have no place in modern political discourse.
Re: Greece's Snap elections
Quote:
Originally Posted by
clone
Braindead Colonel
from your list nearly all have to do with corruption or paternalism which is not a fascist charactiristics nor only found on right wing parties
Stavroforos
"Just to add to the list, ND is also opposed to legalizing same-sex marriage and in separating church and state. Their constant move towards the fright is worrying to say the least."
first i dont rembember a time where nd was supporting same sex marriage nor wanting to separate chuch and state.
kke is also againt same sex mariage ,is it also a far right part?
True, I was simply laughing at the fact that they're telling us how we should stay in Europe when it's clear they don't really know what that means beyond cash.
Re: Greece's Snap elections
Quote:
in separating church and state.
Because the separation of Church and state is what defines what the right wing is. That's just utter BS spewed by people who believe every country should follow the French or American model and who believe that doing so is left wing.
Re: Greece's Snap elections
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alhoon
- Intervention on judicial matters: :huh: ND didn't interfere directly or even indirectly in arresting the terrorist core of Golden Dawn.
There is a video recording of one of the prime minister's close associates assuring a Golden Dawn pm that it was on his (Samara's) orders that the leadership of the Golden Dawn party was arrested. A number of lawyers have publicly pointed out that the connection between the murderer/militant wing and the leadership of the political wing of the Golden Dawn, as well as the legal arguments used, were tenuous at best.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK8eDu5s2wY
These people, disgusting as their rhetoric may be, are elected representatives of the Greek people. You can't just throw them in jail without solid, indisputable evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alhoon
- True, but that's hardly fascist. It's corruption plain and simple and SYRIZA, Pasok, etc are not above it.
The economic policy of fascism is crony capitalism; some families are chosen by the government and given free reign over the economy. Pasok and ND have been following this policy for the past 40 years. Syriza has not been in power yet, so I find your statement to be presumptuous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alhoon
- I 100% agree with Chalkidiki gold mines. If anything I accuse the previous governments and local politicians that capitalized on sentimentality and stop such an important source from operating.....
The landfills... there should be landfills SOMEWHERE you know. We can't send the garbage to Mars.
The mining rights were given to local oligarchs for a pittance, who then sold the rights to Eldorado Gold for a tidy sum. The deal was so scandalous that the EU commission itself objected to it. But since the environment is simply a "sentimental issue" for you, I guess its not worth expanding on the subject.
As for landfills, they need to be placed not somewhere i.e. where politically convenient, but where it is geologically suitable, with ample provisions for recycling. On both fronts the Greek government has failed completely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alhoon
- About sports, I remind you that leftwing states also invested heavily in sports. Check how the Eastern Germany athletes of the 80s were.
Fascist elements were also present in communist regimes, yes. What's your point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alhoon
- Media: It's the other way around. The Oligarchs that have the private media control the government. That's cleptocracy and corrupt democracy, not fascism. And it's one of the reasons I won't vote for ND. Or SYRIZA for that matter because they're propped up by a different bunch of oligarchs and their media.
Let's get away with the notion that ND governs Greece and SYRIZA tries to take control. Vardinogiannis and his cabal govern Greece through their proxies and a different cabal of multimillionaires try to take control with their SYRIZA proxies.
Crony capitalism is a part of fascism. Also, a blind man can see that every single tv station is doing their best (mainly through fear-mongering) to promote the ND party. That's the main reason why I'll be voting Syriza. If Syriza is not good for Bobolas, Latsis, Alafouzos, Vardinogiannis, Kokkalis, Melisanidis, and the rest of the scum that run this country, then Syriza is good for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
clone
from your list nearly all have to do with corruption or paternalism which is not a fascist charactiristics nor only found on right wing parties
Having the judicial system answer to the executive branch is indeed a fascist state of affairs.
Yes, left-wing governments can suck too. What's your point?
Re: Greece's Snap elections
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Costin_Razvan
Because the separation of Church and state is what defines what the right wing is. That's just utter BS spewed by people who believe every country should follow the French or American model and who believe that doing so is left wing.
Huh? I don't care whether it's left or right wing, it has no place in a 21st Century Western democracy.
Re: Greece's Snap elections
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Braindead Colonel
These people, disgusting as their rhetoric may be, are elected representatives of the Greek people.
And terrorists that murder those that disagree with them. T
he evidence wasn't tenuous at all, it was recorded stuff they were shown to say. Yes, Samaras instructed the police to crack down on this terrorist organization as he should have. The judges that judged them weren't affected by the government hence Kasidiaris was left out on bail, and proceeded to beat reporters on his way out of the courtroom. The Government was actually dissatisfied with the bail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Braindead Colonel
The economic policy of fascism is crony capitalism; some families are chosen by the government and given free reign over the economy. Pasok and ND have been following this policy for the past 40 years. Syriza has not been in power yet, so I find your statement to be presumptuous.
Yes, but in our case, the government was chosen by the families and was given some freedom to run the country according to those families wishes.
SYRIZA has been in power for 40 years. After all, 20% out of 28% that SYRIZA has are old PASOK and ND cleptocrats that moved to SYRIZA to keep stealing. Laliotis is an example. There are way more.
I don't know where you live but chances are a good portion the old PASOK Unionists, municipality officials etc in your area that were taking fakelakia by the dozen are now supporting SYRIZA. Just ask the thieves, the do-nothing-in-the-day and corrupt public employees in your area. About half of those I know of, moved to SYRIZA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Braindead Colonel
The mining rights were given to local oligarchs for a pittance, who then sold the rights to Eldorado Gold for a tidy sum. The deal was so scandalous that the EU commission itself objected to it. But since the environment is simply a "sentimental issue" for you, I guess its not worth expanding on the subject.
:eek: Seriously?!? Eldorado Gold took the rights from private interests? I didn't know that. That is disgusting indeed. Not Fascist, but disgusting. Another reason why I won't vote for ND.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Braindead Colonel
As for landfills, they need to be placed not somewhere i.e. where politically convenient, but where it is geologically suitable, with ample provisions for recycling. On both fronts the Greek government has failed completely.
Yes, they did. They're a bunch of corrupt, lazy, incompetent ########. Not Fascist. BTW, many of those that "designed" those landfills and "worked" in these projects (i.e. gave them over to their buddies to design with huge sums of money) are ex-PASOK and current-SYRIZA supporters. I know one such engineer from ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Braindead Colonel
Crony capitalism is a part of fascism. Also, a blind man can see that every single tv station is doing their best (mainly through fear-mongering) to promote the ND party. That's the main reason why I'll be voting Syriza. If Syriza is not good for Bobolas, Latsis, Alafouzos, Vardinogiannis, Kokkalis, Melisanidis, and the rest of the scum that run this country, then Syriza is good for me.
Actually, no. Many TV stations and newspapers are doing their best through populism to promote POTAMI or SYRIZA. Tons of media attention is given to the craphole ND and PASOK put us in.
Melisanidis changes his tune about SYRIZA BTW http://unfollow.com.gr/web-only/13043-gipedo
Alafouzos and SKAI are supporting SYRIZA too.
About half the scum that run this country now bribe the hungry cleptocrats of SYRIZA or keep bribing the PASOK-ND cleptocrats that moved there. They're not stupid, they know SYRIZA will come to power.
So, I would agree with Clone. What you describe is a terrible state of affairs, but it's not fascism. I have no problem at all with you being driven to rage by the indecencies that ND and PASOK put as through. But don't call them by different names. There's no ideology behind these crimes other than money-grabbing to gain power and power-grabbing to gain money.
Fascists would at least die for their ideology. Our politicians would not.
Re: Greece's Snap elections
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alhoon
SYRIZA has been in power for 40 years. After all, 20% out of 28% that SYRIZA has are old PASOK and ND cleptocrats that moved to SYRIZA to keep stealing. Laliotis is an example. There are way more.
I don't know where you live but chances are a good portion the old PASOK Unionists, municipality officials etc in your area that were taking fakelakia by the dozen are now supporting SYRIZA. Just ask the thieves, the do-nothing-in-the-day and corrupt public employees in your area. About half of those I know of, moved to SYRIZA.
To become the ruling party, you need at least a relative majority. So yes, a lot of riffraff from Pasok and ND have moved to Syriza. Its mathematically impossible otherwise. But that is a far cry from claiming that Syriza has been in power.
Now, if Syriza will be any better remains to be seen, no?
But, just for Greeks to keep any form of self-respect, the current government needs to be removed from power. I wish it were some other party that would be replacing them, but Syriza is it. That itself speaks volumes about the Greek people, who are far from blameless for the current state of affairs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alhoon
Yes, they did. They're a bunch of corrupt, lazy, incompetent ########. Not Fascist. BTW, many of those that "designed" those landfills and "worked" in these projects (i.e. gave them over to their buddies to design with huge sums of money) are ex-PASOK and current-SYRIZA supporters. I know one such engineer from ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ.
Yes, the scum has floated to another party. That's the way it has always been.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alhoon
Actually, no. Many TV stations and newspapers are doing their best through populism to promote POTAMI or SYRIZA. Tons of media attention is given to the craphole ND and PASOK put us in.
Potami, yes. That is a party created by the media owners. Syriza no, at least from what I have seen. That's why I'm still hopeful. Maybe there are enough earnest people in Syriza to make a difference, and keep it from turning into another Pasok.
Re: Greece's Snap elections
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Braindead Colonel
Potami, yes. That is a party created by the media owners. Syriza no, at least from what I have seen. That's why I'm still hopeful. Maybe there are enough earnest people in Syriza to make a difference, and keep it from turning into another Pasok.
Looks like the people who want the PASOK-style public sector party to start again simply moved from PASOK to SYRIZA.
Re: Greece's Snap elections
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Braindead Colonel
But, just for Greeks to keep any form of self-respect, the current government needs to be removed from power. I wish it were some other party that would be replacing them, but Syriza is it. That itself speaks volumes about the Greek people, who are far from blameless for the current state of affairs.
Can't say I disagree with you. Can't say I agree with you.
I don't have the answer. I don't know what to vote. I can't let the current government go on with impunity. I can't vote for one-of-the-same. PASOK in 1978 was like SYRIZA is now. Look how it ended up.
I just hope the Pirate Party of Greece will go to elections alone, without the abominable Green Party package that has turned from environmental niche party to anti-patriotic corrupt tree-huggers.
If Pirate Party goes alone, I'll vote for them.
Re: Greece's Snap elections
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hobbes
At this point it's not possible to compare KKE with any other major European party. They're fossils, glorified has-beens ruled by an out of touch gerontocracy, and have no place in modern political discourse.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yTFEvBmHvV...0/34-11(1).jpg
http://www.patrasevents.gr/imgsrv/f/full/808077.jpg
http://www.rizospastis.gr/getImage.d...01&format=.jpg
I've seen older..
Re: Greece's Snap elections
Tragic images... Youth wasted.
Re: Greece's Snap elections
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alhoon
Tragic images... Youth wasted.
I think it's actually slightly promising. You'd think with all the youth that are in KNE, KKE would get stronger, but nope, once these people leave university, it seems most of them leave behind stupid things like Communism as well.
Re: Greece's Snap elections
It's not like they adhere to Communism really, they just support KKE because mom and dad were commies/they want to get their dicks wet/are idiot freshmen who got sucked in.
Re: Greece's Snap elections
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hobbes
It's not like they adhere to Communism really, they just support KKE because mom and dad were commies/they want to get their dicks wet/are idiot freshmen who got sucked in.
Indeed, which is why it's somewhat pointless to parade the "youth" of KKE around. All they do is make university a :wub: experience for everyone involved.
Re: Greece's Snap elections
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stavroforos
Indeed, which is why it's somewhat pointless to parade the "youth" of KKE around. All they do is make university a :wub: experience for everyone involved.
Party youths have a tendency to suck the fun out of everything they happen to touch.
Re: Greece's Snap elections
Talking of party youths I used to hang out with the elected "president" of a ND party youth some years back in a university.
He showed me with pride one day on a cellphone video how the ND youth charged and beat the hell out of the Pasok youth. :P
It was around the time when Karamanlis Junior was running for prime minister.
Yes, most people around the ages of 18-20 view parties with a sense of football hooligan pride, and I can say the parties involved allow this to happen, with pleasure.
Re: Greece's Snap elections
So, Braindead Colonel, could you name a few expectations you have from SYRIZA with respect to the policy they are going to pursue against the oligarchs? Are they going to nationalise Hellenic Petroleum and MotorOil? Are they going to break up their oligopoly by introducing new market players? What about public constructions? Are they going to renegotiate the Attiki Odos Concession Agreement, for example? Are they going to revoke Athens Mall's legalisation under fast-track proceedures? Will they end the subsidisation of Kopelouzos' and Mytilinaios' windfarms? Give us the measure by which you are going to judge their success or lack thereof.
