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Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?
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Originally Posted by
Genius of the Restoration
I know the Constitution doesn't say that but that's how I see it.
How you see it is irrelevant, what the constitution says is all that counts, otherwise what's the point of the constitution if every member can interpret it to mean whatever they want it to mean.
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The Constitution doesn't say anything about making previous contributions either, so it's safe to say that neither of our positions are based on it.
No it doesn't, and when the constitution is silent on something that's where individual opinion and interpretation comes into play. This is particularly true when CdeC is supposed to determine if a candidate "contributions" are adequate to become a citizen, neither contribution nor adequate are defined leaving it open to interpretation.
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I don't think the contributions are nullified and so the only thing would stop a removed citizen from being readmitted, in my books, is whether the behaviour is adequate.
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, however using your example of Ferrets this statement doesn't even agree with your what your actions would be. His behaviour is terrible, always has been always will be, his contributions of real value are next to non-existant, and yet just because he had citizenship before you want to give it back to him. He didn't deserve it in the first place and his actions since before then and certainly since afterwards have proven that again and again and again.
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Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?
Reflect on the quality of the CdeC instead of the applicants and many of your questions will be answered.
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Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?
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Originally Posted by
Severus Snape
Reflect on the quality of the CdeC instead of the applicants and many of your questions will be answered.
You saying something there pops? :P
Seriously, please explain.
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Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?
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Originally Posted by
Leonidas The Lion
You saying something there pops? :P
Seriously, please explain.
I should have said qualities, not quality.
We obsess over the quality and quantity of citizen applications, a variable that remains more or less constant (and according to some, irrelevant) when broken down to its basic points. The CdeC constantly changes both in membership and in condition (via the TWCC) and yet we pay very little attention to that. Changing biases, attitudes and backgrounds influence citizenship applications in a much more significant way. I've been looking at those applications for years and they're all pretty much the same in form and content with little exception.
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Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the ...
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Originally Posted by
Severus Snape
We obsess over the quality and quantity of citizen applications, a variable that remains more or less constant when broken down to its basic points. The CdeC constantly changes both in membership and in condition (via the TWCC) and yet we pay very little attention to that. Changing biases, attitudes and backgrounds influence citizenship applications in a much more significant way. I've been looking at those applications for years and they're all pretty much the same in form and content with little exception.
Well the standard have increased over time. I mean I don't need to tell you that If you or I applied today with the contributions we had in our old apps that we wouldn't pass.
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Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the ...
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Originally Posted by
Leonidas The Lion
Well the standard have increased over time. I mean I don't need to tell you that If you or I applied today with the contributions we had in our old apps that we wouldn't pass.
I don't buy it. Standards fluctuate based on the arbitrary standards of the people in office and are never the same applicant to applicant. We're tying to measure and immeasurable thing.
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Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the ...
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Originally Posted by
Severus Snape
I don't buy it. Standards fluctuate based on the arbitrary standards of the people in office and are never the same applicant to applicant. We're tying to measure and immeasurable thing.
Yep, you are right, standards do fluctuate and are hardly measurable. But, imagine if they were measurable. What we would notice is that there exists a mean. We would also notice that there exist deviations from that mean. While the mean is only slowly shifting over time, deviations are much more noticeable. These deviations are essentially what you are noticing, which usually have to do with the unique character of each councilor. Nevertheless, despite this, there does exist an undefined mean. We know this because no councilor would accept a citizen with, say, only one Helios article and nothing else. While we can't pinpoint the mean, it has established itself through institutional practice. As councilors gradually raised the bar over time, the citizens they accepted were institutionalized into this standard. As they became councilors, they did not deviate too far from that standard, gradually raising it themselves.
And so it continued until we have reached our blessed day. Behold! Diamat knows all!
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Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?
That doesn't change the fact that somebody above the undefined mean can be rejected for arbitrary reasons.
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Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?
Name one committee driven process that's not prone to the whims of the members of said committee?
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Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?
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Originally Posted by
Robin de Bodemloze
Name one committee driven process that's not prone to the whims of the members of said committee?
It's a spectrum
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Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?
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Originally Posted by
Severus Snape
That doesn't change the fact that somebody above the undefined mean can be rejected for arbitrary reasons.
Granted, but I'd say the current system is working pretty damn well, where huge deviations usually do not occur.
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Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?
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Originally Posted by
Diamat
Granted, but I'd say the current system is working pretty damn well, where huge deviations usually do not occur.
I see the Curia-Illuminati-Mod-Nazis have trained thee well.
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Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?
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Originally Posted by
Guy
I see the Curia-Illuminati-Mod-Nazis have trained thee well.
Indeed. I am expecting a promotion and medal soon.
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Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?
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Re: Citizenship Requirements: Is the bar set too high, or is it just par for the course?
Absolutely not. The rank of citizen is a privilege for the elite few who go above and beyond to make TWC the interesting, content rich site it is today. It is supposed to be hard to become one unless you truly have done something of merit. I think the requirements are fine.
Not to mention since citizens have a say in how the site is run it makes sense to have veteran members with the focus and intelligence to create something worthy of the rank voting on pressing issues.