[GENERAL DISCUSSION] [SPOILERS] G.R.R.Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire

**this post contains spoilers if you haven't read the books**

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This is a question I'd like to throw out there. Far be it for me to critisize GRRM but, having read the entire series twice, it seems to me that our fav author is hellbent on punishing House Stark in every way imaginable. Ok, I get that this series is not like others, and that the good guys don't necessarily win, but, even given all this, I have to wonder if the Starks were not created simply to act as punching bags for "evil". At this point in the series, I really can't see how they could make a comeback without some Biblical-scale deus ex machinas.

- The patriarch is dead. The matriarch is a zombie.
- The eldest son is dead. The second son is a cripple on a mystic quest beyond the wall. The third son is both too young to be a dramatic character, and out of sight for now. The bastard son has carved his own niche away from the main branch of the family. Besides, he was never a legally a Stark.
- The eldest daughter is essentially a hostage to an extremely devious man of unknown purpose beyond his own survival and quest for power. The younger daughter is in a foreign land, completely cut-off from Westeros, without friends, and learning assasin skills.
- All the Stark retainers of any note are dead.
- Winterfell is in ruins. The Northern lords have been defeated and are now led by a psycho who has the support of King's Landing.

Going back to a point I made earlier, I do realize that GRRM's intent with ASoIaF was to portray realistic people in a fantasy environment, and that few of the characters are either completely good or evil. Having said that, it is clear from the way GoT opens and progresses that we are meant to sympathize with the Starks and it seems a tad callous to heap so much punishment on them without, so far, any kind of payoff. Sure, this can be remedied in future novels (I pray to the Seven every night that they let GRRM live long enough to finish the series) but, as I said, they are now so far removed from any form of power that their return would literally necessitate several miracles.

Any thoughts ?

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Originally Posted by gapper4

**this post contains spoilers if you haven't read the books**


This is a question I'd like to throw out there. Far be it for me to critisize GRRM but, having read the entire series twice, it seems to me that our fav author is hellbent on punishing House Stark in every way imaginable. Ok, I get that this series is not like others, and that the good guys don't necessarily win, but, even given all this, I have to wonder if the Starks were not created simply to act as punching bags for "evil". At this point in the series, I really can't see how they could make a comeback without some Biblical-scale deus ex machinas.

- The patriarch is dead. The matriarch is a zombie.
- The eldest son is dead. The second son is a cripple on a mystic quest beyond the wall. The third son is both too young to be a dramatic character, and out of sight for now. The bastard son has carved his own niche away from the main branch of the family. Besides, he was never a legally a Stark.
- The eldest daughter is essentially a hostage to an extremely devious man of unknown purpose beyond his own survival and quest for power. The younger daughter is in a foreign land, completely cut-off from Westeros, without friends, and learning assasin skills.
- All the Stark retainers of any note are dead.
- Winterfell is in ruins. The Northern lords have been defeated and are now led by a psycho who has the support of King's Landing.

Going back to a point I made earlier, I do realize that GRRM's intent with ASoIaF was to portray realistic people in a fantasy environment, and that few of the characters are either completely good or evil. Having said that, it is clear from the way GoT opens and progresses that we are meant to sympathize with the Starks and it seems a tad callous to heap so much punishment on them without, so far, any kind of payoff. Sure, this can be remedied in future novels (I pray to the Seven every night that they let GRRM live long enough to finish the series) but, as I said, they are now so far removed from any form of power that their return would literally necessitate several miracles.

Any thoughts ?

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I agree that he seems to be abit harsh on them, but still, its not as grim as it might seem if you think ahead. For instance:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

- Arya: Training to be an assassin... What does assassins do? Somehow I think we will get some really nice revenges on some bad characters from her.
- Sansa: Hostage by possibly the most devious man in the Seven Kingdoms, but still... his pupil. Learning the true game of thrones that involve intrigues, diplomacy and cunning. I can imagine her becoming quite the advesary for the other players.
- Bran: Training to learn magic or foresight. Do I need to say anything more? I think he will play a huge role to come.
- Jon: Will ultimetly defeat the White Walkers (propably, one can never rule anything out with GRRM), and thus raise the prestiege nad in indirect ways help the remaining Starks and most importantly, Stannis. Im not sure, but Ive always had a feeling that Danearys and Jon will meet up and do something. ;)

Also, I know you say in your opening that its spoilers, but for the sake of it, when youre talking about spoilers, use the spoilers tag so noone who just glimpse by might catch something ;)

Their behaviour is too strait for world of Westeros. The consequences of their actions are natural. But they'll become a legend - like Florian, Baelor the Blessed - a family of martyres.

I don`t think he`s too hard on them, the many things happening to them are direct results of their actions. For example; Ned could have avoided all this.

And where did the imp go ....I got quite attached to him I wonder if he will turn up with on of the starks ???
and Briene ..the maid of tarth will she agree to kill Jamie Lanister
I realy need to get the next (last?) book

and Please finish game ....partial update ..........please ...need to play .........:)

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Ive always liked to think that Littlefinger actually cares about Sansa, being Catelyn's daughter, and that he will not betray her and help her out.
Also I firmly believe that Stannis is not Azor Azhai reborn(or however the hell you spell it) and that Danaerys is.
-Maester Aemon said that Melisandre misinterpreted the prophecy and that it wasnt Stannis: Lightbringer has not hot, etc.
-Danaerys was born amongst salt and smoke or whatever the prophecy says.
-The whole thing about burning a king and raising stone dragons: Dany burnt her husband Khal Drogo, Khal means king in Dothraki, and turned her STONE dragon eggs into dragons and also in a sense tempered them with the life of her beloved with fits with the what Azor Azhai did by killing his wife with it to temper the blade.
-We have heard from Sam when he did his research on the others that they can be killed by dragonglass, valyrian steel, and DRAGONS FIRE. I wonder who has dragons? Dany!!!
-Theres some other things I had figured out at one point but I cant remember off the top of my head so ill update this post if I think of them
Also I cant wait to see what happens with The Mage, the archmaester sam met, going to help Dany.:thumbsup2
Edit: realized I started to hijack this thread and talk about dany :P Someone mentioned Dany and Jon meeting so it made me remember this.

Definite ADWD spoilers

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gapper4

**this post contains spoilers if you haven't read the books**

- All the Stark retainers of any note are dead.
- Winterfell is in ruins. The Northern lords have been defeated and are now led by a psycho who has the support of King's Landing.


Any thoughts ?

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You might be wrong on that these two points see the below link for ADWD spoilers.
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php...lers-for-adwd/

I don't think that the Starks are being punished that hard. While they have certainly lost alot, they are put into a position unique to re-take everything and even more. If I would hazard a guess I would say that a classical "good guys turn everything around at last minute and takes it all" scenario is still their most likely future.

And yes, I would dearly like to see them go down for good and real. Still I hope that it is done in a good way and I will have had plenty of time to feel joy for my favorites.

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Originally Posted by Gurkhal

I don't think that the Starks are being punished that hard. While they have certainly lost alot, they are put into a position unique to re-take everything and even more. If I would hazard a guess I would say that a classical "good guys turn everything around at last minute and takes it all" scenario is still their most likely future.

And yes, I would dearly like to see them go down for good and real. Still I hope that it is done in a good way and I will have had plenty of time to feel joy for my favorites.

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in some ways i feel that at the moment we're at "the empire strikes back" period for the starks now -

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

for the simple reason that if many more things go wrong there won't be a lot of starks left to worry about!

Or jon magically controlls the others and buttwipes all of the seven kingdoms into a fine dust, or paste even. and then rules as the cold people king ^^

People, stop whining. Every time you do, GRRM will kill even more Starks...:tongue:

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Originally Posted by Sanguinary Guardian

People, stop whining. Every time you do, GRRM will kill even more Starks...:tongue:

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Lol it would be funny if he did it like that.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"Im tired of people complaining about Ned dying. Maybe I'll kill Rob to shut them up?:hmm:"

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Originally Posted by Jaime Goldenhand

Lol it would be funny if he did it like that.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"Im tired of people complaining about Ned dying. Maybe I'll kill Rob to shut them up?:hmm:"

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Certainly, it explains a lot...

I don't think there will be the big comeback for the Starks. Martin will probably give them back what they've lost, but i don't think he's going to make the fatal mistake to write a typical "the good come back and take everything" story. Like making them kings of the seven kingdoms. I think they'll get back the north and have some pretty nice revenge, but nothing more. That would be perfect for me. Falling into stereotypes now would ruin the whole thing.

The last book of the series was originally going to be called "A time to wolves" buy was changed, probably because it was to spolierish. It looks like Martin is planning a Stark comeback at the end of the series. My guess is it will be Jon defeating the others and maybe R+L=J. I also Arya and Bran will come back and one of them will control the giant wolf pack lead by Nymeria.

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Originally Posted by .Doge.

I don't think there will be the big comeback for the Starks. Martin will probably give them back what they've lost, but i don't think he's going to make the fatal mistake to write a typical "the good come back and take everything" story. Like making them kings of the seven kingdoms. I think they'll get back the north and have some pretty nice revenge, but nothing more. That would be perfect for me. Falling into stereotypes now would ruin the whole thing.

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Ya, I agree, that would suit the series very well and I'd be very happy with that kind of ending. Just want the poor bastards to catch a break and see some of the worse villains get their dues.

Yeah A Time for Wolves would have been a huge giveaway. But as Jojen said the wolves will return. At the least Rikkon will return as Lord of Winterfell. I hope all the other kids live as well. I think Jon is most likely to die in a blaze of glory against the Others (but I hope he lives).

Sansa as long as she causes the downfall of Littlefinger thats good with me. Keep her in the South if she comes North I'll pull my hair out.

Arya will be a sneaky assasin, helping to mop up all the evil people as the series closes.

So the Starks will recover. It is known.

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Originally Posted by ShadowKiller2000

Yeah A Time for Wolves would have been a huge giveaway. But as Jojen said the wolves will return. At the least Rikkon will return as Lord of Winterfell. I hope all the other kids live as well. I think Jon is most likely to die in a blaze of glory against the Others (but I hope he lives).

Sansa as long as she causes the downfall of Littlefinger thats good with me. Keep her in the South if she comes North I'll pull my hair out.

Arya will be a sneaky assasin, helping to mop up all the evil people as the series closes.

So the Starks will recover. It is known.

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I think Martins original plan may have been for Rickon to return to some form of power, but with him doing away with the five year break, he may have altered that plan. I think It will actually be the Lannisters (Jamies and Tyrion) who end up helping the Starks at the end.

Now that I could see. Jaimie seems to be repenting a bit over his past actions.....and throwing Bran out a window created a big debt that he will most likely feel obligated to repay in some manner. Tyrion already liked John, and is married to Sansa........so he will try as well I guess.

I think GRRM will also let the Starks be re-established in their own right anyway, but I am sure Jaimie and Tyrion will try to help (if they live that is).

I kind of agree with the OP.

I've also sympathized with the Starks and when I first read the books, I really wanted them to succeed.

That being said, along about the middle of book three I got so pissed off at GRRM and his "hatred" of House Stark that I had to put the book down.

I know he doesn't "hate" this house, but dang, they get the short end of the stick, quite a lot.

This works with his true to life characters however, it follows well. The Starks are all about honor and living by a strict code. People who follow a singular moral code often times end up in service to or being beaten down by the world, no matter how good their code is.

Seems a little pessimistic I guess, but kind of true.